View source for Template talk:English grammar

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{{Talk header}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|
{{WikiProject English Language}}
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==Use for this table==
Having just created this table, I have just realised that some of the links in it do not only apply to English (D'oh!). Can anyone suggest a usage for this table? My only worry is that if it becomes a series for all grammar, then it will become far too long.

[[User:Lofty|Lofty]] 11:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Yup, that won't do.  I would stick to articles specifically about English grammar, and not all articles on grammar which happen also to pertain to English.  For example, I would remove [[Relative clause]] but include [[English relative clauses]].  --[[User:Doric Loon|Doric Loon]] 19:14, 28 June 2006

== Rename Article ==
Given that this grammar template pertains only to English grammar, shouldn't the template be renamed? [[User:66.229.182.113|66.229.182.113]] 06:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

:Yes, it should. For the same reason, it should also be removed from ~50,000,000 of the pages it's currently on. [[User:Ruakh|Ruakh]] 13:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

==English declension==
The article named [[English declension]] is really about [[Old English]]. It shouldn't be together with the rest. [[User:FilipeS|FilipeS]] 21:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

== English nouns? ==

Looks like maybe it is time for a full article and a link here for [[English nouns]] (currently just a section in [[Noun]]. [[User:Facts707|Facts707]] ([[User talk:Facts707|talk]]) 05:54, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

: *′′′Agree′′′ with the above. Great work in grouping together the necessary types.  My only recommendation further would be to include Verbs in the Parts of Speech list and have a collapsible list for these as well as possible to further clean this up. [[Special:Contributions/173.167.211.241|173.167.211.241]] ([[User talk:173.167.211.241|talk]]) 17:15, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

== RfC: Change template from {{tl|Sidebar}} to {{tl|Sidebar with collapsible lists}} ==
<div class="boilerplate archived" style="background-color: #EDEAFF; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">{{Quote box
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  | quote = The consensus is that the sidebar should have collapsible lists and that per [[MOS:DONTHIDE]] the collapsible lists should not be auto-collapsed by default.<p>[[User:Cunard|Cunard]] ([[User talk:Cunard|talk]]) 04:34, 2 June 2019 (UTC)</p>
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:''The following discussion is closed. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive top-->
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Should the sidebar have collapsible lists to make it easier to navigate? <span style="width:140px;height:20px;background-color:#023;font-family:monospace;text-align:center;">[[User:InvalidOS|<span style="color:#0EE;font-size:16px;">InvalidOS</span>]][[User:InvalidOS/t|<span style="color:#DE0">talk</span>]]</span> 14:20, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
:'''Yes'''. <s>Although at the moment most of the articles are about linguistic concepts more generally, including a few which barely feature in English. Meanwhile there's [[:Category:English_grammar|a whole category]]'s worth of other things we could include. If we're keeping it, though,</s> I think some good top-level sections would be Morphology, Parts of speech, Verbs (given the number of articles), Syntax, Orthography and <s>Nonstandard grammar</s>Other. We could also maybe have one<s>s</s> for Phonology (if we want to include it) <s>and individual words like [[Than]] and [[Y'all]] which have their own article</s>. Of the ones already in the sidebar I've tried to group those which I think should stay (please forgive the mess): 

[[Morphology]]:
Diminutives (in Australian English)
Plurals
Prefixes (in English)
Suffixes (Frequentative)

[[Parts of speech|Types of words]]:
Acronyms
Adjectives
Adverbs
Conjunctions
Compounds
Demonstrative
Determiner
English articles
English honorifics
Expletive
Intensifier
Interjections
Interrogative words
Portmanteau
Possessives
Prepositions
Pronouns (case, person)
Nouns

[[English verbs|Verbs]]:
Auxiliaries, contractions
Mood (Conditional, Subjunctive, Imperative)
Aspect
Irregular verbs
Modal verbs
deduction
habits and past facts
Passive voice
Phrasal verbs
Verb usage

[[Syntax]]:
Adjunct
Argument (linguistics)?
Clauses (in English)
Copula (linguistics)
Inversion
Periphrasis
Predicate?

[[English orthography|Orthography]]:
Abbreviations
Comma
Hyphen

Variant usages:
Grammar disputes
Double negatives

─ [[User:ReconditeRodent|ReconditeRodent]] « [[User talk:ReconditeRodent|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/ReconditeRodent|contribs]] » 19:27, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I've been through the category ([[:Category:English_grammar]]) and there are actually only a few things I think are worth adding since a lot is already covered by the top-level articles and it would be easy to inundate the sidebar with links to fairly short and not too important articles. That said, these are the things I would add:
*Types of word: Adverbs ([[Flat adverb]]?)
*Verbs: [[Grammatical tense#|Tense]] ([[Past tense#English|Past]], [[Present tense#English|Present]], [[Future tense#English|Future]]), Aspect ([[Continuous and progressive aspects|Continuous]], [[Perfect (grammar)|Perfect]], [[Habitual aspect|Habitual]]), Transitive/Intransitive [[-ing]]
*Syntax: [[Zero-marking in English]], [[Do-support]]
*Orthography: [[Capitalization in English|Capitalization]]
*Other: [[African-American Vernacular English]], [[Ain't]]?, [[American and British English grammatical differences]], [[Thou]], [[Singular they]]
─ [[User:ReconditeRodent|ReconditeRodent]] « [[User talk:ReconditeRodent|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/ReconditeRodent|contribs]] » 21:29, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
*'''Yes, a long as they are not auto-collapsed by default''', per [[MOS:DONTHIDE]].  While that's primarily about in-article ("main prose") content, and we make exceptions for navigational boxes, we shouldn't make one just to make one. It's an accessibility problem and, on mobile, a usability-at-all problem. Much can be done by grouping this stuff under template-internal heading (presumably also links, to broad-topic articles), and using concise inline "flat" lists instead of a space-wasting vertical one using a whole line even for one-word entries.  If the sections within the template are made collapsible under conditions, that's okay.  E.g. many of our page-bottom navboxes auto-collapse except for their title bar if the page has multiple navboxes.  We should do the same with multiple sidebars. At some point, the usability/accessibility problem of the navigation being collapsed and not easily expandable for some people is outweighed by the page being overwhelmed with navigational linkage that distracts from the actual content. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 23:21, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' - its too unwieldy as it is now. But, SMcCandlish raises a good point that they should ''not'' be collapsed by default. --[[User:DannyS712|DannyS712]] ([[User talk:DannyS712|talk]]) 05:15, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
*'''Yes'''. Make use of the {{code|listNname}} parameters to allow expanding individual sections within the template. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">–&nbsp;[[User:Finnusertop|Finnusertop]]</span> ([[User talk:Finnusertop|talk]] ⋅ [[Special:Contributions/Finnusertop|contribs]]) 12:35, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
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: ''The discussion above is closed.  <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] --></div><div style="clear:both;"></div>

== Dictionary photo ==

Looks like there have been a couple of failed attempts to replace the dictionary photo on this template. Using a photo of clear brand-name dictionaries does seem inappropriate, for both implying that the content of all these articles comes from Longmans, and that the subjects are limited to the scope of dictionaries.

[[User:Brett]]'s suggestion of [[:File:A_pile_of_English_grammar_books.png]] (general grammar books, no prominent publisher name) and mine of [[:File:Bookman Ornament 9617 (bookshelf).svg]] (a clipart bookshelf, no text at all) both seem more suitable to a general purpose grammar template. --[[User:Lord Belbury|Lord Belbury]] ([[User talk:Lord Belbury|talk]]) 12:45, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

:Thank you for this, [[User:Lord Belbury]]! [[User:Alborzagros]] keeps reverting it to the dictionary photos without any explanation. I left a message on their talk page months ago, but there was no reply.--[[User:Brett|Brett]] ([[User talk:Brett|talk]]) 13:13, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

::For what it's worth I didn't realise that there'd been previous disagreement on the issue, I just replaced the picture with what I considered to be a more appropriate one, and it got reverted by Alborzagros with no edit summary. I'd be happy with either the grammar books or the clipart here. (I also considered [[:File:Bookman_Ornament_4858_(bookshelf).svg]], which is a wider but neater image.) --[[User:Lord Belbury|Lord Belbury]] ([[User talk:Lord Belbury|talk]]) 15:56, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

:::I really liked the original clipart one Belbury proposed. ─ [[User:ReconditeRodent|ReconditeRodent]] « [[User talk:ReconditeRodent|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/ReconditeRodent|contribs]] » 08:59, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

::::It looks like [[User:Alborzagros]] is the author of the dictionary photo: File:English-English and English-Persian dictionaries.JPG. I am the author of the photo of the grammar books, but I just put it together to find something to replace the dictionaries. I'm open to other suggestions.--[[User:Brett|Brett]] ([[User talk:Brett|talk]]) 14:03, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

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