User talk:Jimbo Wales: Difference between revisions

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This is a reminder for speedy deletions of Commons images. In past conversations, there have been concerns that improper images have been left in Wikimedia Commons, and talk about the numerous valid images has been seen as "avoidance" of the real copyvios or problem images. Instead, I think we should remind people how easy it is to request speedy deletion of many improper images. Consider the following templates, on Commons, to request the speedy-deletion of images which have been displayed inside enwiki pages.

• On Commons, use {{copyvio|1=Copyvio from webpage www.xxxxxxx.com}} - to edit an image and request speedy deletion of a copyrighted, non-free image pinpointed in the named webpage. There is little need to debate deletion, if an image can be shown to be non-free, in another webpage, unless a later alternate source reduces that former copyright to allow display.
• On Commons, use {{duplicate|File:Other_file_name.jpg}} - In many cases, Commons is bloated with duplicates, or resized images, almost identical to another image, and just cluttering the collection.

Those 2 sets of requested speedy-deletion images are continually checked by Commons admins, for quick deletion. See Commons category:

· Commons:Category:Copyright_violations - index of images to delete

In the case of duplicates, see the category named "Duplicate":

· Commons:Category:Duplicate - index of images to delete as duplicates

In that category, images will appear after tagging with "{{duplicate}}" and within a few hours, most tagged images will disappear, as having been deleted. The fact that "Category:Duplicate" is almost empty, at any given time, is evidence of how quickly the requested images are processed, where even rejected requests will be edited to become valid image style. Anyway, users on enwiki should beware invalid, but rare, images on Commons, and help to get them quickly deleted, such as using the Commons templates explained above. -Wikid77 18:41, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Commons category over 150 copyvios but fleeting: Although there often have been more than 150 images tagged for {{copyvio}} in Commons:Category:Copyright_violations, many seem to be deleted within a few days, although some were uploaded in 2008, 2010, 2011 or such. With so many images tagged each day, then the logistics tend to keep over 150 images in process, each day. -Wikid77 05:47, 16 May, 08:34, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Jimbo, first of all allow me to congratulate with you for your wonderful creation called "Wikipedia". But, as you know, some people try to use it for their personal propaganda, mainly in the political arena. That is why I wish to request your control (or the one from your staff) in order to moderate a group of wiki admins of the Spanish wikipedia. This group controls all the articles related to Hugo Chavez and seems to be under the leadership of user:Edmenb, a fanatical supporter of this Venezuela president. This admin (with his group) has blocked every writing that is not supportive of Chavez and often bans those who dare to make critics to "Chavismo". He sometimes laughs at you Jimbo if somebody complains that he is not the owner of sp. wikipedia articles about Venezuela and Chavez, and remembers him that you Jimbo want a NPOV encyclopedia ( see [1]Sinceramente_no_me_pareces_apto_para_ser_bibliotecario]). Best regards.--LLanero1978 (talk) 18:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So this isn't the only language having issues with our good friend Chavez... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:26, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It probably doesn't help that the IP requesting an NPOV encyclopedia compared Chavez with Hitler in the thread linked to - suggesting an agenda of his own - not exactly NPOV. I wouldn't be too quick to judge Edmenb based on this testimony alone. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:39, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say which side was the problem, just that there's apparently a problem there too. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For those new to this, it's apparently the longest running BLP issue involving continuous off-wiki canvassing and frequent multiple blocks on both sides. If there ever was a reason for arbcom's existence, this is it. Maybe some guidance that there are more important things than vendettas against top performing admins would help. 71.212.246.55 (talk) 18:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Perhaps allow content-forks for supporters/critics articles: When the very concept of the other viewpoint seems to be censored, then dedicating an entire sub-article to that viewpoint could help ensure broader coverage, without problems where the truth is not really a 50-50% split, so a priori notions that the debate is evenly divided cannot stop the 2 sub-articles from covering the details. A similar problem occurred with the claims made by Amanda Knox in Italy, that some police officer had hit her head, twice, from behind her back, to force her to state a false statement of events. Several editors kept trying to reduce that concept, but sources noted evidence which supported Knox's claim and those police officers were also claimed by other citizens for similar beatings, and then finally, even the prosecutor (who attended some interrogations) admitted that "perhaps" Knox had been hit by the officers. Wikipedia was trying to present as much sourced text as possible but really, there needed to be a sub-article explaining the suspect's version of events (even claiming hits from police), rather than try to force a 50-50 coverage which limits the explanation of such beatings in other cases or admitted by some officials. A single article can suffer from seeming to have WP:UNDUE attention to negative or positive text, unless the article is dedicated to whichever negative/positive view and related supporting evidence. Naturally, the choice of splitting to content-forks should be justified, and in these cases, it appears to be. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:55, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I just read through the article on Spanish Wikipedia and...wow, it's definitely way worse than our article. At least you can tell in ours, from both the article itself and the talk page discussions, that we are striving to make it neutral, even if we aren't quite getting there. But the Spanish Wikipedia version...it's practically dripping with approval. Any discussions of human rights violations is minimized. There is even a section on the talk page where someone brought up that information should be put in about the decade report from Human Rights Watch, but was shot down by other users who said HRW is controlled by US multinationals and that one of the people in charge of it is biased against Chavez because they were involved in the politics of the region back when he came to power. Silverseren^C 20:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it comes with the culture, though; I would contend that just as many people in Spanish-speaking countries would support Chavez as the amount of people in English-speaking countries that would oppose him. --MuZemike 21:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But we're at least trying to show both good and bad, like I said, we're striving to make it neutral. They...aren't. That Spanish Wikipedia article isn't an encyclopedia article, it's a political piece. Silverseren^C 21:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What are the problems with the article? It seems no more biased in favor of the biographed subject than for example our own article on Vladimir Putin.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:23, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Vladimir Putin could also definitely use some work, but comparing it to another article doesn't change the fact that there are issues in Hugo Chavez on es.wiki as well. Silverseren^C 18:06, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But that kind of work is obviously best solved at the talkpage of the article in question no? So why don't you make a section at es:Hugo Chavez describing the problems you see with the article preferably with suggestions for sources that can be used to correct it?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:28, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Might exceed balance of Spanish sources as fringe ideas: If the media is "controlled" to suppress negatives, then the negative text could be considered a "fringe" idea, not really allowed in a main article. Just as with any topic, there should be a fringe subarticle, such as "Dissident fringe views of Hugo Chavez" so that the main article would not be used for soapboxing rare topics (rarely found in controlled Spanish sources). For example, it might be difficult to find negative German sources from 1935 about Hitler, depending on the level of censorship near the time they burned the books of Albert Einstein (world-famous since 1919) as "Jewish science". However, the good news for eswiki is that a fringe-idea article should be allowed to exist, as a first step, and that can provide a voice, although limited, for the opposing views about Venezuela and Chavez. In the USA, with a huge Spanish "sub-culture" (Miami is the Hispanic Hollywood), then many Spanish sources should exist to verify the "fringe ideas" without wp:notability scraping from English sources to justify inclusion of those ideas. -Wikid77 15:19, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is extremely unlikely that this is what is going on. The Spanish language media worldwide is large and diverse, from Spain to South America to Mexico to the United States. What is necessary to understand here is that it has been common when ordinary Wikipedians aren't watching for people who are either paid operatives or POV pushing activists come in and make ludicrous arguments to justify the exclusion of what are by any normal standards considered quite properly to be gold standard reliable sources. I'm speaking here of what I have seen in English. I'm quite sure that there are plenty of well-documented reports in the Spanish language media of (for example) food shortages in Venezuelas, criticism of their human rights record, etc. It is not a matter of the Spanish language press loving him and the English language press hating him.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:38, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Spanish article is rarely edited: The checking of Spanish sources does confirm some negative reports, but now the problem is that there is no obvious evidence of suppressing negative text in eswiki, because that article is rarely edited (perhaps 5 times per month, only 3 edits 1-15 May). The history-log on Spanish WP:

· http://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez&action=history

Unless dissenting users are blocked, or topic-banned, it should be possible to translate some sourced, controversial text from enwiki "Hugo Chávez" and see if any 5 edits per month remove those views. This is an equally high-profile article on both eswiki/enwiki, in terms of pageviews (perhaps 2880x per day on eswiki, or 2840x on enwiki), so expect nearly 87,000 views per month for each language. One negative source in Spanish addresses religious concerns, "Chávez y sus 'demonios' " (source: Jornada.unam.mx): "Chavez and His Demons" -

"A pesar de que un cardenal advierte el peligro de una "dictadura de tipo marxista", la relaciones del chavismo con el resto de la jerarquía católica parecen marchar por un terreno terso tras largos años de pleito. En ese escenario, el gobierno venezolano expulsa hoy a un grupo evangélico que ha estado 60 años en su territorio."

That covers "...expulsion today (2006-Feb-12) of an evangelical group which had been 60 years in the territory". It is puzzling that the eswiki page is not edit-warring, so perhaps dissenting users have been driven away by now, as happened with editing about Knox in Italy. -Wikid77 22:43, 15 May, revised 04:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Asked user to trying updating Chávez on eswiki: Since any past resistance might have subsided, I have contacted the user to request another attempt to update "es:Hugo_Chávez" on eswiki, and to report back here if new problems. See: that user talk-page at "Try updating Chávez on Spanish WP". Let's confirm if text is rejected. -Wikid77 04:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  I've left a note on the talk page of the Spanish Wikipedia article on Pres. Chavez of this discussion, here.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:32, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  The response is pretty much what I expected, i.e. an insult. Silverseren^C 18:01, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What part of the response do you find to be insulting? The user rightly mentions that the first place to start changes for the es.wiki article is on its talkpage. There is no current discussion on the talkpage about neutrality issues. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:08, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Translating a bit for the English, I have an issue with the last sentence that reads, "Greetings to the democratic Godkings and alike, should they come to moderate or control our community's editing." Silverseren^C 19:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You don't think we would reat similarly if someone on another wiki was discussing how to solve problems on en.wiki without involving us?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:38, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Except we're not trying to solve their problems. If we were creating es.wiki accounts and trying to directly edit the article, then I would understand that reaction. But if we're just pointing out that it doesn't seem balanced, I would hope that we would start a discussion to see about fixing it. And discussion is now going on at our Vladimir Putin article, for example, to see about improving it and this section is showing that we seem to have an issue with IP addresses and SPAs that are pushing a pro-Russian agenda, which explains why the article is so pro-Putin, so that's something we need to deal with now. I would love your involvement in that and the lower discussion. We really need to put some balance into the article and less Singing and Painting. Silverseren^C 03:23, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Jimbo, I agree with you "that it has been common when ordinary Wikipedians aren't watching for people who are either paid operatives or POV pushing activists come in and make ludicrous arguments to justify the exclusion of what are by any normal standards considered quite properly to be gold standard reliable sources". I am one of the thousands of Venezuelans who were forced to move out of Venezuela and come to Florida because of Chavez. But we fear "consequences" for our families left in Venezuela, and that is why I did not answered quickly to comments from Jimbo & others. Let me explain better: two days ago some military police showed at my father's home in Caracas and questioned him about me and my comment (erased here, by the group of user:Edmenb) that I knew personally Hugo Chavez. Indeed I knew him when he was a young officer, working in Maracay and coming to Caracas to participate in training at the "Poligono de Tiro" of Fort Tiuna in Caracas in 1978. I remember we competing at the Poligono used to nickname him "Llanero loco" (crazy man from venezuelan plains) and probably he was disgusted by this. But in those years he was a very clever young man, who was able to listen to commentaries from those who disagreed with his POVs: now the "excessive" power has changed him totally. And, unfortunately, he is even a vengeful person (as many know in Venezuela): that is why I am forced to not trying to improve the wp:NPOV neutral balance in the sp. wikipedia articles of Hugo Chavez & his Venezuela. May be you cannot understand my decision, because you live in a free country. But those who live or have lived in Latinoamerican countries understand me: from "desaparecidos" to harrassment in private life/work, the range of possible abuses is very huge.... Anyway, I hope others (like Wehwalt or Wikid77) will post those NPOVs and "control" abuses by fanatics like Edmenb & co. in sp.wikipedia. Best regards.--LLanero1978 (talk) 17:44, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have no intention of getting involved thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:49, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Personal involvement with the subject which is being edited may suggest conflict of interess and definitely creates problems of archiving neutrality when dealing with it... FkpCascais (talk) 05:20, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, given that it's on the es Wikipedia anyway, I couldn't close a discussion there (my Spanish is decayed college level). But I'm starting to find all this discussion here unseemly. Shouldn't this be as that es.wiki editor suggests, on the talk page there? Talking about getting someone to post "to overcome past resistance" on another wiki could give ArbCom days merrily chasing their own tails over what is, and what is not, meatpuppetry (there seem to also be canvassing issues that have arisen). I would suggest that pains be taken to remain well within our policies, and to be seen to do so.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimedia Foundation is operated as a not-for-profit charitable organisation (giving it certain tax exempt benefits), yet all content hosted on its servers, including images, are required to be licenced free-for-commercial use. This means that huge amounts of content, particularly images, available for non-commercial use remain unusable in Wikipedia. Why? Apart from corrupting Google book searches with commercial publications of articles we have contributed our free time to, what is the point of this requirement that content be free for commercial use? In what way are the goals of Wikipedia better served by the exclusion of free non-commercial content? --Nug (talk) 11:31, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For one, the offline releases of Wikipedia content (Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team) is considered commercial, notwithstanding the fact that the Foundation is a not-for-profit. Monty₈₄₅ 14:29, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• This is a good explanation of what is bad about NC licenses.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:05, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lessee, I'm getting out of that link: "Non-Commercial licenses are good because Wikipedia requires non-commercial licenses and Wikipedia is good." What's the rationale for banning off graphics freely donated TO Wikipedia, for use ON Wikipedia, but prohibiting additional reproduction? I've bumped into this from the likes of material from Duke University Archives and a fairly famous journalist who is the subject of a WP piece but not willing to let anybody do anything anywhere for any reason with his image — which is exactly what WP tries to require. It makes no sense to me. Carrite (talk) 02:56, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • If that's all you got out of the article, you must not have actually read the article. Your question is answered there in detail. Please go read it again.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:54, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have to say, though, that points 2–4 make a much stronger case; whoever wrote this should've moved point 1 to the bottom... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 07:01, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • "Whoever"? It was written by Erik Möller. Uncle G (talk) 18:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Brilliant, my liege, Brilliant"--GoShow (...............) 00:54, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The way I see it, the difference comes down to restriction vs. freedom (i.e. libre and not gratis). CC-BY-SA allows users the freedom to reuse content, with attribution, for any purpose, whether it be commercial or non-commercial. CC-NC-SA restricts that freedom of usage to only non-commercial use. In theory and per our foundation/early years, we strive to be as free as open as we can with our content, which is why we don't accept CC-NC-SA content. --MuZemike 01:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Concur with Jimbo and with MuZemike. It would be nice to have, but it is more important that our stuff be "free" to the user. That's what were all about, kinda.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:32, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Have a drink! Thanks creating for wikipedia! Andrei.smolnikov (talk) 09:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Was curious to know your opinion if you have the time. [2] Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 10:08, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's time for somebody at Wikimedia to file a complaint against George Mason University. A professor there seems to be on a crusade to vandalize Wikipedia articles as part of an experiment: link. 90.163.10.74 (talk) 12:09, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Someone needs to give that professor a dictionary, so he can look up the difference between "professor" and "con artist". I think the university should have him stay after class, and write 500 times on the chalkboard:

· "I will not vandalize Wikipedia in class, with my class."

· "I will not vandalize Wikipedia in class, with my class."

· "I will not vandalize Wikipedia in class, with my class."

I can imagine some of his next classes, "Hoaxes in bank robbery and when to give the money back" or perhaps "Advanced wife-beating" then maybe a graduate class in "Thermonuclear pranks". I guess we could get various contact addresses for George Mason University, and then each write some letters of concern. -Wikid77 14:27, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note that this experiment actually vindicates Wikipedia, in large part. From the article: "The loose thread, of course, was the Wikipedia articles. The redditors didn't initially clue in on their content, or identify any errors; they focused on their recent vintage. The whole thing started to look as if someone was trying too hard to garner attention." So an elaborate conspiracy, dozens of people, months of effort, in many online media, all fell apart right here. That's the good news.

The bad news is that as the article also says, "Wikipedia has a weak community, but centralizes the exchange of information. It has a small number of extremely active editors, but participation is declining, and most users feel little ownership of the content. And although everyone views the same information, edits take place on a separate page, and discussions of reliability on another, insulating ordinary users from any doubts that might be expressed. ... Reddit, by contrast, builds its strong community around the centralized exchange of information. Discussion isn't a separate activity but the sine qua non of the site." I disagree with this analysis slightly - I think that part of the issue is that people here are continually derided with WP:NOTAFORUM, rather than encouraged to engage in more free-ranging discussions, though the Refdesks are a partial release from that. In any case, while Wikipedia helped shatter the hoax, it needed this external assistance due to some internal deficiency. Wnt (talk) 15:59, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is also worth considering for a moment what "ethics", in the modern sense, actually apply. This course is part of George Mason University's "MA in global affairs. Students in this degree program develop a wide range of global competencies as well as specialized knowledge in a particular thematic concentration—everything from global health, to global media, to global economic development, to global history and culture. Graduates of the master's program are prepared for work in a variety of global contexts, including employment by government agencies, non-governmental organizations, businesses with a global presence, and various international organizations." As seems universally agreed in modern society, the purpose of a university is not to train people to learn, but to train people to work, and work involves not the cultlike pursuit of the Truth, but absolute loyalty to a master, right or wrong, including the ability to competently lie and mislead. Such is never so true as for government agencies working in and around Arlington, Virginia. For a professor to accept students' money - backed by taxpayer guarantees on their loans - and produce a person with a religious attachment to the Truth, who is not willing to manipulate, confuse, and destroy a site like Wikipedia, let alone the things that he might actually be called upon to do - well, this is just dishonesty; such a professor takes his salary either from defaulted loans or from the basement-dwelling unemployed graduate's parents and is therefore a mere parasite demeaning the reputation of his institution. Whereas one who finds a snazzy way to show that his students will bend and break ethical boundaries and publicize their work to the world... that is a paragon of virtue. Wnt (talk) 16:34, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More proof how students will do anything to get a grade, while paying $thousands to attend. "Wir war only following orders für der Führer". Been there, done that, got a World War. Perhaps we need to update some essays about ethical uses of Wikipedia, as reminders to college professors. -Wikid77 05:23, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not that I advocate doing so but I suspect if people suddently started vandalizing some of the George Mason University related articles with an edit summary referring to the professor and the class his campaing of vandalism would come to a screeching halt pretty quick. Also, although I do not agree with everything Wnt said above, I do also agree this project and our purpose in it was largely vindicated by the fact that they didn't get away with it or rather didn't get away with it for long. Kumioko (talk) 19:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would also note the statement, which I have been complaining about for months, seemingly to the walls, that "It has a small number of extremely active editors, but participation is declining". With the recent Arbcom ruling against Rich F and his bots, my sharp decrease in edits as well as others you can count on that declination to increase considerably. Kumioko (talk) 19:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is more information about Professor T. Mills Kelly on the following pages.

• History and Art History | Faculty and Staff: T. Mills Kelly
• Teaching Issues: T. Mills Kelly
• George Mason University - College/University - Fairfax, VA | Facebook
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—Wavelength (talk) 20:04, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note that following the Reddit thread, a sockpuppet investigation was filed concerning this, which can be found here. I was oblivious to the background at the time though. Jimmy, is there scope for having a word with Professor Kelly? As a Reddit user wrote, this is like beating up the nice guy to show he isn't tough. WilliamH (talk) 21:57, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I laughed, I laughed really hard. Silverseren^C 21:43, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'd appreciate your thoughts or others' at this thread: Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Paid_consulting_for_a_deletion_review. Thanks and cheers, Ocaasi ^{t | c} 20:19, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You might advise them that I'll do the work personally for free.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:50, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is odd that someone would hire an editor for a deletion discussion. Do they feel their article is being deleted unfairly? I posted my comments on the COIN board mostly under the presumption they were actually hiring you to write the article if the deletion discussion went their way. I would be interested in hearing about your experience afterwards and I'm sure plenty of people will be curious which deletion discussion it is. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 22:51, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User:Austex divulged a conflict of interest, and expressed a desire for deletion of the article "Texas Disposal Systems Landfill v. Waste Management Holding".

—Wavelength (talk) 15:00, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A watchlist survey is in progress at User:Elen of the Roads/Watchlist survey.
—Wavelength (talk) 23:34, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

File:Scanner ass - Flickr - stnu.jpg

• - Keep This is an illustration of a cultural phenomenon, and it shows the texture of the scrotum quite well. User:Handcuffed (talk) 04:35, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• - Keep, unique usage of light and shadow in depiction of popular cultural phenomenon. -- User:Cirt (talk) 22:16, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: As per handcuffed and cirt User:russavia (talk) 03:45, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Deletion_Request: See Commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Scanner_ass_-_Flickr_-_stnu.jpg

That page confirms only 2 Keep !votes during 9-16 May, and hence Kept after 7 days. I wonder how people find these images to keep; I guess they periodically check the deletion lists, just in case a photo like that can be saved. -Wikid77 (talk) 06:49, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is what is going on at commons - ya couldn't make it up - The user:Handcuffed is the uploader , its his ass - User:Cirt was the only other commenter in the deletion discussion - both he and the User:Russavia , both commons administrators , are severely restricted here an en wikipedia via arbitration, one, User:Cirt is not allowed to to edit BLP articles at all and the other, User:Russavia is currently en wikipedia site banned six months, Commons is currently controlled by such as these people. This type of situation and comments from the same users and a few others are being repeated at multiple similar pictures. This one, a picture of no encyclopedia value and without probable chance for inclusion in any wikipedia article. Jimmy, is this the type of content you imagined the commons content repository would include, and do you consider it within the Wikipedia foundations project scope ? Youreallycan 05:38, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It needs to be deleted.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 06:23, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Youreallycan, rather than trying to create dramah on Jimbo's Wikipedia page (rather than going to his Commons page) by forcing him and others to look at Handcuffed's recently created student prank arse photo (currently getting 7 to 10 views a day until you posted this link), you could try just raising this image for a second deletion request on Commons or start a discussion on Commons somewhere like the village pump in order to challenge the interpretation of Commons scope. I know you just love using Jimbo's talk page as a great big dramah soapbox, but the look-at-this-porn-listen-to-me-OMG-think-of-the-children routine was tired a long, long time ago and this image hardly lives up to the high bar of the bestiality video [argument] that Jayen466 has been spending his time promoting and shouting about, so often and on so many platforms. --Fæ (talk) 06:25, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You User:Fæ appear to be part of the problem at commons, so please don't attempt to point me in the right direction - I asked Jimmy a question , not you. Youreallycan 06:30, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I thought you posted this publicly to attract other people to read your opinions. Perhaps in future if you don't want people to read your comments to Jimbo, you should think about emailing them to him privately? Thanks --Fæ (talk) 06:36, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I await your train crash with baited breath - Youreallycan 06:38, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nice. --Fæ (talk) 06:40, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fae that is not the point. The point is creating a comprehensive and reliable reference work, of truly encyclopedic quality. The bunch of people controlling commons are not helping towards that goal, and indeed they have a negative impact of putting off those who want to contribute something of an encyclopedic nature. Quisquiliae (talk) 06:34, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Commons is not Wikipedia, it has quite different policies that focus on a wide educational scope rather than encyclopaedic value. Discussing Commons this way on Wikipedia where people are wearing Wikipedia tinted spectacles is pointless if the intention is to improve Commons policies. If you want to help improve Commons, have the discussion on Commons. --Fæ (talk) 06:40, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

the bestiality video that Jayen466 has been spending his time promoting - What the fuck Fae, did you really just write that? As in, explicitly stating that another user is promoting bestiality videos? WHY. ARE. YOU. NOT. BANNED. FROM . THIS. PROJECT????? Come on Jimbo, it's about time for a little bit of common sense here.

This really has reached Level: Insane.VolunteerMarek 06:46, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fair comment, added the word "argument" that I missed out. If you want me banned, use the right process, don't expect Jimbo to by-pass the community processes based on your personal appeals. As a tip, if you do want to complain about me, it might go down better if you avoid shouting. Thanks Fæ (talk) 06:50, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit conflict response below. Response to direct comment here. "Fair comment" my ass. You just put a little word in a little bracket into the middle of a heinous insinuation. Let me spell it out. You. Just. Wrote a bullshit comment. Which directly insinuated that a particular person "promoted bestiality". And you really think that putting that little bracketed caveat inside your previous odious comment makes it all better? You just slandered the hell out of another person. This isn't even BLP, this is just outright nasty shitty low down stinkin' fucked up shit. And you are an administrator? On this project? If you want me banned, use the right process, - yes!!! I want you banned! Anyone else makes this kind of comment they'd be indeffed within seconds! Why the hell are you not? And if I'm shouting (which I'm not) it's only because this is a kind of a situation which deserves it. VolunteerMarek 07:03, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I'm sorry but I just got to add that that comment is sooooo messed up on sooooo many levels that one can't even start to think about the fact that this is a Wikipedia administrator doing this kind of thing. Honestly. Any other user insinuates that someone is promoting bestiality, no matter how coy they are about the wording, they get their ass banned. And rightly so. What is going on here?VolunteerMarek 07:03, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Volunteer Marek try unclutching your handbag for a moment. Jayen466 has spent a month posting links to the same sex video in emails, on multiple Wikimedia projects and off-wiki; one of the obvious outcomes has been to increase traffic to the video. It was obvious from my comment that the word "promoting" related to Jayen466's blatant soapboxing of his argument, not that Jayen466 was known for selling pornography. My comment is incredibly mild compared to your "friends" off wiki calling me a pedophile image promoter, a pervert, a "fae got", criminally fraudulent and the Gestapo. Now, get over yourself, your ranting is not going to impress anyone, least of all Jimbo. --Fæ (talk) 08:59, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Marek - sending around links to content and getting people to watch it is indeed 'promoting', regardless of the political orientation of the person doing so. And if we could have editors banned from the project for (allegedly) falsely stating that someone is promoting bestiality, does that also mean that we can get editors banned for falsely claiming Commons is full of kiddie porn?

A small group of people keeps bringing up the sort of marginal images from Commons typified above as if it's a big deal, but it's not. Commons' purpose is to keep and expand its collection of useful content for the world - not to carefully sort through every image pondering over its morality. If Commons doesn't field hundreds of volunteers breathlessly pawing over this deletion proposal to ensure butt scans are removed, what does that tell you? That the people there have decided they have better things to do! Wnt (talk) 12:04, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I want to renominate it for deletion, but it was just closed yesterday. I assume the rules for deletion nomination there are similar enough to here, which means it is very much frowned upon to renominate after such a short time frame. Options? Silverseren^C 07:36, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are we sure things like this can't be identified in the future? The person who uploaded it to Flickr might be identified. I'd go and ask for a model release via commons:Commons:OTRS. And if they can't be identified how can we check up on copyright anyway? Dmcq (talk) 09:06, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

God willing, Homeland Security won't be implementing scrotal recognition for decades. Wnt (talk) 12:11, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Last time I went through airport security I went through a body scanner. Pretty much the same thing I understand. Do we have any images of those types of pseudo-nude body scans on Commons? --Fæ (talk) 12:23, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The April editor-count data has been posted, and unfortunately, more good news in editor retention: April counts exceeded the March highly active editors (>100 edits/month), for the first time since April 2005.

· Editors >100 edits: http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediansEditsGt100.htm

Perhaps 2012 is the transition year, where some counts will still fall slightly, while others rise higher. There is not yet a dramatic increase compared to last year, but the April 2012 count (as 3,459 editors) was 99.2% of the April 2011 count of 3,488 busy editors. The reversed trend is the small uptick in April over March, where typically, the April "spring-break" counts have always dropped by 90-120 or so, not risen by 35 editors (%1) in April. Meanwhile, the count of the occasional active editors (>5 edits) did fall, slightly, but only by 605 (to 33,781), rather than the typical April drop over 1,300 active editors, leaving after March each year.

I know this good news must be very frustrating for users who want everyone to leave in anger, but if the active editors will not leave, then perhaps other ways must be found to work with them to fix the problems. The April 2012 data again supports the concept that the decline has bottomed out at 34,000 active editors, and 3,500 highly active editors (average) each month. -Wikid77 07:28, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Shucks that terribly annoying. Which problems would you suggest would most reduce the number of active editors if we fixed them? ;-) Dmcq (talk) 08:24, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That is sorta good news but I can only hope that we can maintain it. I think with Rich F and his bots blocked thats going to cause a fairly big drop in edits, at least for a while. I'm not doing anything close to the numbers I was doing and several others are the same way. Unfortunately Wikipedia from the start of things been very reliant on a small group of extremely active editors and that group is shrinking. So although I agree that the numbers sound good I also think that we still have a lot of work to do. I also think that although this data is encouraging we should also look at how many editors are staying compared with those that do a dozen edits and leave. I know that some stats have bene done that compares some of this but I think it would be interesting to see a chanrt that shows a line for new editors with 5-10 edits, editors with 100+ edits and editors with 1000+. What I suspect is our efforts to get new recruits are working for a while and then after a few edits they leave. I don't know that for sure though. Kumioko (talk) 14:19, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I hate to be cynical...oh who'm I kidding, I love to be cynical, but I'd be curious as to how much of that is related to the US presidential election season and the users that flood in with the usual POV based editing every 4 years.--Cube lurker (talk) 14:28, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Problems of WP:CIVIL and WP:OWN: I guess my message could be interpreted as wanting more editors to leave, but it was intended the other way round. Several editors have been frustrated by unresolved cases of insulting remarks which violate WP:CIVIL or WP:OWN, where the attitudes and remarks make editors want to quit, but overall, more editors join. I still think a solution would be per-article edit-limits, perhaps on a 3-month basis, which could force some editors to skip various articles or talk-pages, once they reached a personal edit-limit for some troublesome pages. I suppose another person's user-talk page could also be set with a limit, so that they would be less likely to see wp:Wikihounding on their user-talk page by a specific user. -Wikid77 14:39, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, and sorry for another unglobal, unimportant and personal request. I edit in fawikipedia and today i want to archive my talk page (in fawiki) but i move my main talk page there to a mistake and undesired page (this one) and after that i use copy/paste in my talk page to correct my first mistake so i lose my talk page history in my desired talk page archive. I request from you or your friend that help and first if it is possible revert my main talk page to this edition please and if it is not possible, i want you to merge my main talk page (in fawiki) with this page and their history, you now i want my main talk history come back to its page. sincerely. --H.b.sh (talk) 07:46, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, there are probably helpful people over on the fa.wiki site that could help you just as easily. This is the en.wiki and alot of the editors here don't have accounts on the fa.wiki. I'm not sure how the process is over there, but you could maybe place a {{helpme}} on your talk page with your question underneath it, and someone will help you. MrLittleIrish ^(talk) 申 12:43, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• History perhaps shows user talk-page already restored: As with a prior message from that user, a look at their fawiki talk-page history, shows many multiple revisions, this time by multiple fawiki usernames, which seems to indicate the long-term history was recovered by un-moving the pages to restore the original history log. See history log:

Log on fawiki for User_talk:H.b.sh: http://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%AB_%DA%A9%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%B1:%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%AB_%DA%A9%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%B1:H.b.sh/%D8%A8%D8%A7%DB%8C%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C_%DB%B1&action=history

I assume the user made multiple other requests, and the fix has happened already. -Wikid77 14:39, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]