Talk:Donald Trump: Difference between revisions

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Article milestones Date Process Result June 2, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed February 12, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed September 17, 2016 Good article nominee Not listed May 25, 2017 Good article nominee Not listed December 2, 2018 Good article nominee Not listed July 15, 2019 Good article nominee Not listed August 31, 2019 Featured article candidate Not promoted April 29, 2020 Peer review Reviewed Current status: Former good article nominee

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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Cuozzo, Steve (November 16, 2013). "Don't Trust Anything on Wikipedia". New York Post. Popper, Ben (July 22, 2015). "Someone just deleted Donald Trump's entire Wikipedia page". The Verge. Merrill, Jeremy (February 1, 2016). "On Wikipedia, Donald Trump Reigns and Facts Are Open to Debate". New York Times. Germ, Erik (May 28, 2016). "5 Secretly Bizarre Sections Of Websites You Use Every Day". Cracked.com. Guo, Jeff (October 25, 2016). "Wikipedia is fixing one of the Internet's biggest flaws". The Washington Post. Alcantara, Chris (October 27, 2016). "The most challenging job of the 2016 race: Editing the candidates' Wikipedia pages". The Washington Post. Staff Writer (December 21, 2016). "Most-edited Wikipedia pages of 2016 revealed". BBC News. Gartenberg, Chaim (January 20, 2017). "Wikipedia editors can't decide if Trump is the president yet". The Verge. Wyrich, Andrew (June 5, 2017). "Someone is trying to get Trump's official portrait deleted from Wikipedia". The Daily Dot. Warren, Tom (22 November 2018). "Siri thinks Donald Trump is a penis". The Verge. Blumenthal, Eli (22 November 2018). "Wikipedia vandalizing causes Siri to show a lewd image when asked about Donald Trump". USA Today. Griffin, Andrew (23 November 2018). "Asking Siri for information about Donald Trump shows explicit image after Wikipedia edit". The Independent. Gander, Kashmira (23 November 2018). "Someone hacked Donald Trump's Wikipedia page, replaced photo with image of penis". Newsweek. Martin, Alan (26 November 2018). "The Trump penis Wikipedia war has kicked off again". The Inquirer. Brandom, Russell (December 3, 2018). "Wikipedia engages the 'nuclear option' after Trump penis hack". The Verge. Mak, Aaron (May 28, 2019). "Donald Trump's Wikipedia Entry Is a War Zone". Slate. Pasternack, Alex (March 7, 2020). "How Wikipedia's volunteers became the web's best weapon against misinformation". Fast Company. Flood, Brian (May 21, 2020). "Wikipedia co-founder Larry Sanger says online encyclopedia scrapped neutrality, favors lefty politics". Fox News. Evon, Dan (November 19, 2020). "Does Loser.com Redirect to Trump's Wikipedia Page?". Snopes. Williams, Zoe (October 23, 2023). "Why is Elon Musk attacking Wikipedia? Because its very existence offends him". The Guardian. Hays, Gabriel (May 31, 2024). "CNN host suggests Trump conviction not mentioned prominently enough on former president's Wikipedia page". Fox News. Harrison, Stephen (June 4, 2024). "The Most Heated Debate on Trump's Felony Conviction Is Happening on ... Wikipedia?". Slate.

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Section sizes Section size for Donald Trump (90 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 9,193 9,193 Early life and education 2,824 2,824 Personal life 54 13,880 Family 1,326 1,326 Health 3,685 3,685 Views 8,815 8,815 Business career 149 40,699 Real estate 3,920 14,891 Manhattan and Chicago developments 5,738 5,738 Atlantic City casinos 3,612 3,612 Clubs 1,621 1,621 Side ventures 8,039 9,323 Trump University 1,284 1,284 Foundation 5,027 5,027 Legal affairs and bankruptcies 2,316 2,316 Wealth 8,993 8,993 Media career 4,593 4,593 Early political aspirations (1987–2014) 4,753 4,753 2016 presidential election 32 19,936 Campaign 11,801 19,904 Financial disclosures 3,382 3,382 Results 4,721 4,721 First presidency (2017–2021) 139 178,201 Early actions 2,423 2,423 Conflicts of interest 3,406 3,406 Domestic policy 21,326 21,326 Race relations 6,234 6,234 Pardons and commutations 2,574 2,574 Immigration 3,087 21,269 Travel ban 5,269 5,269 Family separation at the border 6,269 6,269 Trump wall and government shutdown 6,644 6,644 Foreign policy 2,893 36,016 Trade 2,529 2,529 Russia 4,222 4,222 East Asia 21 10,655 China, Hong Kong, Taiwan 4,915 4,915 North Korea 5,719 5,719 Middle East 23 15,717 Afghanistan 3,042 3,042 Israel 2,637 2,637 Saudi Arabia 2,229 2,229 Syria 3,798 3,798 Iran 3,988 3,988 Personnel 8,965 8,965 Judiciary 4,175 4,175 COVID-19 pandemic 291 31,782 Initial response 7,804 7,804 White House Coronavirus Task Force 5,282 5,282 World Health Organization 2,677 2,677 Pressure to abandon pandemic mitigation measures 7,969 7,969 Political pressure on health agencies 2,690 2,690 Outbreak at the White House 2,666 2,666 Effects on the 2020 presidential campaign 2,403 2,403 Investigations 1,079 26,087 Financial 3,111 3,111 Russian election interference 6,492 6,492 FBI Crossfire Hurricane and 2017 counterintelligence investigations 2,573 2,573 Mueller investigation 12,832 12,832 First impeachment 10,407 10,407 Second impeachment 3,398 3,398 2020 presidential election 34 24,063 Defeat to Biden 8,432 17,199 Rejection of results 8,767 8,767 January 6 Capitol attack 6,830 6,830 Inter-presidency (2021–present) 5,016 37,306 Business activities 2,382 2,382 Investigations, criminal indictments and convictions, civil lawsuits 1,150 29,908 FBI investigations 5,781 5,781 Criminal referral by the House January 6 Committee 693 693 State criminal indictments 3,176 3,176 Federal criminal indictments 5,743 5,743 Criminal conviction in the 2016 campaign fraud case 7,700 7,700 Civil judgments 5,665 5,665 2024 presidential election 15,712 15,712 Assessments 18 6,637 Public image 4,251 4,251 Scholarly 2,368 2,368 Political practice and rhetoric 5,615 34,111 Link to hate crimes 3,242 3,242 Truthfulness 10,484 10,484 Conspiracy theories 3,490 3,490 Social media 5,810 5,810 Relationship with the press 5,470 5,470 Notes 136 136 References 30 30 Works cited 18 7,652 Books 2,163 2,163 Journals 5,471 5,471 External links 5,635 5,635 Total 405,361 405,361

hello sorry for editin on top of page i am editing on playstation vita bht i was wondering kf we can link the thing in the lede about him redirecting tbe budgst to build the mexican wall sith the articke about the trump wall (blue) text link — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.179.189.180 (talk) 08:37, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds as though he was on the margin of death but he "sustained a minor injury during an assassination attempt". I'm aware of the ifs — if he hadn't turned his head, if the bullet's trajectory had been an inch or two further to the left/right, etc. — but he had and it wasn't. Thoughts on clarifying the description in the lead? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:40, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I say let 'em read further if they want clarification (flogging a comatose horse, lblinks would help in that regard). ―Mandruss ☎ 13:55, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Space4Time3Continuum2x, It appears that you are looking to add something to the lead that suggests Trump wasn't in danger. Is that what this section is about? Bob K31416 (talk) 15:13, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, "assassination attempt" kind of suggests mortal danger. But there's a difference between, e.g., the injuries Reagan sustained during the attempt on his life and the injury Trump sustained. Also, we'll never know the exact nature of the injury unless they release the records of his treatment at Butler Memorial Hospital, so we'll never know. Ronny Jackson's version is worth as much as his medical evaluation of Trump in 2018 — "incredibly good genes ... if he had a healthier diet over the last 20 years, he might live to be 200 years old ". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:59, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You could make an addition to the end of,

"In July 2024, he survived an assassination attempt at a campaign rally in Pennsylvania."

to change to,

"In July 2024, he survived an assassination attempt at a campaign rally in Pennsylvania where he was wounded in the ear by gunfire."

This addition is what is in the body of the article [1] and appears to satisfy what you say you are looking for. Bob K31416 (talk) 13:20, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IMO we shouldn't mention it at all. Doesn't seem that it will have significant consequences. Events in this lede compete with a wide variety of events that might be included, and it's already long. Things can be very "historic" without being notable enough. One example is the Wagner Group rebellion, an astonishing and extremely historic event in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which has correctly fallen out of the lede there because it had no effect on the course of the war and is outshown by other events. During the rebellion it seemed endlessly important, now it's a footnote. I think if we project a little bit into the future, try for some perspective, the assassination attempt is not a top-25 sentence for an article about our subject's life. GordonGlottal (talk) 21:22, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, In the article we currently have [3], "...Trump was wounded on the ear by gunfire...". Bob K31416 (talk) 20:35, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I noted above. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:53, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So looking at my previous suggestion of 13:20, 21 July 2024 for the lead, just change "in the ear" to "on the ear". Bob K31416 (talk) 21:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, you're back to the lead again. It's almost like that's the topic of this thread. I'm still at I say let 'em read further if they want clarification. I'm sure you're aware that existence in the body is a poor argument for addition to the overlong lead. I get that that's not what you're saying; rather you're saying "If we add clarification to the lead, here's a good way to do it." ―Mandruss ☎ 21:31, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Postcript: the Band-Aid is gone, the ear's still there — all of it, it seems. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:15, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

all of it, it seems. Comb-over. Compare left and right! </forum> ―Mandruss ☎ 18:36, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SPECIFICO, you removed the sentence in this edit. Did your editsum in this edit (I intended to remove this UNDUE AND RECENTISM bit, not to change paragraph break) refer to that removal? Then you removed the "insignificant RECENTISM detail covered on other WP pages" in this edit, whereupon I deleted the "assassination" subsection heading and moved the one remaining sentence into the 2024 campaign section. Another editor reverted the removal from the lead with the editsum "extremely notable and well sourced in the body". So now we have this current body text:

On July 13, 2024, Trump was wounded on the ear by gunfire at a campaign rally in Butler Township, Butler County, Pennsylvania.^[1][2]

And this current lead text:

In July 2024, he survived an assassination attempt at a campaign rally in Pennsylvania.

Doesn't quite add up to "the lead section is ... a summary of its most important contents". What do we do?

Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:12, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings from planet Earth. I think the whole thing is RECENTISM and insignificant in Trump's life story. Also the revert of my removal on the grounds that it is well-source is contrary to ONUS for this recent content. The earshot should stay off this article page until such time as there's consensus for inclusion. Which currently is not evident. We're all glad his ear healed so well, but in terms of DUE encyclopedia content, this has already gone the way of his Georgia booking pose and other silly stuff. SPECIFICO talk 16:34, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like overcoverage for the lead. I don't think it merits any mention there. Gerald Ford had two assassination attempts against him while he was president; while he wasn't wounded in either the impact on his biography is similar and those don't rate mention in his lead. That's the best analogy I can think of as to whether this passes the 10YT to the extent that it's leadworthy. VQuakr (talk) 16:42, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree entirely with SPECIFICO and VQuakr - DFlhb (talk) 11:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The second (briefer) sentence would be a preference. Mentioning the event at all? optional. GoodDay (talk) 15:01, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I, also, agree entirely with SPECIFICO and VQuakr. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It should be in the lead and body. One sentence at the end of the lead is fine and im sure a couple sentences in the body is fine. Its well covered by RS and still talked about, should be no issue with the 10YT. PackMecEng (talk) 15:21, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by talked about? Who, where? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, so RS talking about the attempt. In the past week PBS, NYT, CNN, and the Washington Post have all had articles on the topic. PackMecEng (talk) 16:34, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with PackMecEng. Even though the bullet barely touched his ear, yet enough to draw blood, it's still an assassination attempt, and that's a very notable event that should be mentioned in the lead. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:50, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that WP:RECENTISM applies to once sentence, but until the FBI releases its report we won't know what exactly happened. An AR-15 bullet whizzing past his ear, a bleeding skin wound that had stopped bleeding by the time the Secret Service walked Trump off he stage (not a drop of blood on his white shirt collar) and healed without so much as leaving a scar — "survived" just seems inflated compared with Reagan's punctured lung and internal bleeding. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lets ignore the baseless conspiracy theories you are pushing here. It looks like your argument breaks down to you thinking this assassination attemped was not successful enough? That is not a convincing argument in the face of what RS say about it. PackMecEng (talk) 16:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gee, thanks. WP:AGF. I'm objecting to the verb, not the mention of the assassination attempt. And, again, In the past week PBS, NYT, CNN, and the Washington Post have all had articles on the topic - urls, please, you know, for verification. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey if it quacks like a duck its probably a duck. You are spouting unsourced theories that go contrary to pretty much all reliable sources. Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me...

PBS, NYT, CNN, and Washington Post. Plus tons more recently because of the release of bodycam video. But also here is a hint for the future, if you search a topic go to the news tab in google, under tools you can select how recent of sources you want. PackMecEng (talk) 20:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, gee, thanks and WP:AGF. I will continue to believe my lying eyes, and I'm not proposing to add my opinion to the article. This article is about Trump, not the lapses in security, disagreements on which law enforcement forces were supposed to do what, etc., which is what the four sources you cited and this NYT article (archived) are about. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice if you cited the urls of articles you mention. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Mention assassination in lead. Even though the bullet barely touched his ear, yet enough to draw blood, it's still an assassination attempt, and that's a very notable event that should be mentioned in the lead. To put this in context, you should watch this reel from Jason Pargin. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• @PackMecEng: big yikes on [4]. It never should have been restored after being contested in the first place and the only reason it's "been there a few weeks now" is because other editors have the self-restraint not to edit war. Claiming it's the status quo is not ok. VQuakr (talk) 23:29, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  That's how status quo works, its been there a while and removing it, at this point, is the bold action. PackMecEng (talk) 23:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Lol, no. The only bold action here is you deceptively equating "a while" to "a few weeks". Reverted. Zaathras (talk) 23:48, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think you might be confused. PackMecEng (talk) 00:44, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  There is nothing confusing about "It's been there a few weeks now, restoring status quo" being a reality-adverse claim. Zaathras (talk) 00:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Various iterations of the shooting were added to the lead and reverted or amended, e.g., by me on July 16. And then I somehow inadvertently reverted myself, twice, along with other stuff I didn’t mean to do (confusion possibly due to temporary brain spasms and/or intervening other edits). The lead contained the unintended phrase until August 3 when Specifico challenged it, i.e., less than three weeks. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  If you two are going to edit war over stuff that has been there for weeks with continuing coverage does that mean RFC time? PackMecEng (talk) 14:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The body text is sufficient and it links to our plentiful coverage on the shooting page. Trump has moved on and so should we. SPECIFICO talk 15:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  What edit war? Specifico fixed my error. My edit on July 16 proposed this wording: On July 13, 2024, he was injured in an assassination attempt. That was three days after the shooting and 10 days before the gauze pad/Band-Air came off. I've since reconsidered — let's keep it in the body until the FBI has finished its investigation. An AR-15 bullet travelling at around 3,000 feet per second, and there's no scar? >Maybe it hit a gnat on the way, and the gnat nicked the ear. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  4–6 weeks was suggested years ago by admin NeilN. We've used that a number of times and it's the closest thing we have to a local consensus. (I have advocated codifying that and other things like it, but editors prefer the conflicts such as seen here.) ―Mandruss ☎ 02:32, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I hate to be dragged into politics, but this is absolutely ridiculous. The only semi-logical objection is WP:RECENTISM, but even then, this could be applied to virtually anything that happened to him this year. It is extremely notable and highly covered in sources across the political spectrum. There IS consensus, and the only response to that is "4 weeks isn't enough", yet his civil proceedings were added (albeit rightfully) immediately after his convictions... Wretchskull (talk) 16:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  This isn't politics, it's WP. yet his civil proceedings were added (albeit rightfully) immediately after his convictions - yep, WP:BRDBOLD, and nobody reverted. In this case, the edit was challenged, so kindly self-revert. Where do you see a consensus? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:05, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I only saw it recently get removed and suddenly there is a problem which didn't exist for a month. Shouldn't new consensus be established if you want it removed? Also, none of the arguments I see here are actually about the content itself; people challenging there mere fact that it is mentioned. Wretchskull (talk) 17:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  All the arguments here are about the content and its NPOV-worthy sourcing. I would have objected immediately if the idea of putting this inconsequential bit of his life were not typical of the dozens of RECENTISM edits that get a few editors all excited, waste their time and others' valuable time, and then get dropped. Nobody's required to jump in on these proposals immediately or even promptly. Especially when the rationale for them is so readily rebuttable. The significance of this event, to date, relates to the Secret Service, the rally attendees, and other matters UNDUE for this bio page. If it later results in noteworthy significance for Trump, ipse, then it will need to go on this page. Don't forget, at convention time Trump's handlers were projecting the story that this bullet/shard was like tinkerbell's wand that transformed Mr. Trump into a kinder, gentler Trump 2.0. But no source I've seen still believes that has happened. SPECIFICO talk 20:20, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Wretchskull: having this content in the lead was contested more or less immediately, after which discussion began on the talk page. It shouldn't have been restored without consensus per WP:BRD. There most certainly has never been consensus for its inclusion in the lead to date. VQuakr (talk) 20:37, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @VQuakr: It's fine if people contest, it's just that the objections are illogical. @SPECIFICO: Again, absolutely ridiculous: "inconsequential bit of his life"?? "The significance of this event, to date, relates to the Secret Service, the rally attendees"?? Inconsequential? Relevant to virtually EVERYONE in the event EXCEPT the person actually getting shot!? Everything you said is a matter of opinion, because that is not reflected in reliable sources whatsoever. Please provide RS that clearly showcases your point that there is consensus the Secret Service, attendees, etc., are more relevant to the subject than Trump, or that it is "inconsequential", otherwise no objections hold any value. Wretchskull (talk) 10:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Innocent Americans were killed/injured, and Secret Service is in crisis. Trump breezes on. See our article on the incident. SPECIFICO talk 10:36, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I changed my mind a couple of times about whether to add the incident to the lead and, if so, how, and also how to mention it in the body. If we had RS saying the attack had resulted in Trump being seriously injured, or that it had been politically motivated, or that it had a lasting effect on the presidential race, the situation would be different. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:33, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, time will tell. Classic RECENTISM situation. There's incipient commentary among some press and observers that this incident may have accelerated various cognitive dysfunctions. But as with all such speculation, we do not rush to publish it without established encyclopedic significance. SPECIFICO talk 15:30, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  It's fine if people contest, it's just that the objections are illogical. No, just because you disagree with something doesn't make it illogical. Others have mentioned that T. Roosevelt's lead doesn't mention his shooting, which was far more consequential that Trump's appears likely to be. I mentioned the Ford attempts above that also aren't in the lead of his article. The only reason we're even considering adding this to the lead right now is because Trump's shooting is more recent. That doesn't make it lead-worthy. If years from now historians note the shooting as an inflection point in Trump's biography, then we'll probably add it to the lead. As of now, that doesn't appear to be the case - it's just something that's being blended into the rest of the breaking news churn and of little lasting significance. Yes, this is a matter of opinion, an editorial judgement call, since the fact that the attempt occurred is obviously verifiable. VQuakr (talk) 18:46, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As a comparison, note that we don't mention in Theodore Roosevelt's bio lead, that the former president survived an assassination attempt, while campaigning to return to the White House. GoodDay (talk) 13:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SPECIFICO: Yep, and consensus, even in the article, considers it an attempted assassination of the former president. No contrary sources; I rest my case. @Space4Time3Continuum2x: We can mention the assassination in the lede. These arbitrary rationales (whatever happened to him afterwards, etc.) are not what drives encyclopedias, because it's based on summation of reliable sources. @GoodDay: An article doing or not doing something has essentially no bearing on a discussion. The Roosevelt article isn't high-quality or that well-thought-through, and neither are there discussions about mentioning the attempted assassination in the lede. There is absolutely no reason not to include it to the Roosevelt article lede, and the exact same applies to this article. The lede section summarizes the most important points from the article body. The attempt on Trump had a well-sourced section which was unduly removed for being "unnecessary", which logically applies to literally any section. Are there any other objections people have or do we have to stretch this out for weeks and months..? Otherwise, we can reinstate the sentence. Wretchskull (talk) 16:02, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The former president only got his ear clipped. It has already healed. And most importantly, it has quickly fallen out of the news cycle. The way the media has treated this story, it is far closer in scale and coverage to the guy who chucked a grenade at President Bush than it is to the biography-defining attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan. All in all, not lede-worthy. Zaathras (talk) 16:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wretch, that is a strawman. I don't see any suggestion it was not an assassination attempt. It's just that it had negligible significance in Trump's long and storied biography. SPECIFICO talk 16:58, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It appears you're suggesting expanding this dispute, into RFC territory. That's entirely up to you. But I suspect by mid-September, the assassination attempt on Trump will be even less noteworthy. GoodDay (talk) 17:27, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Wretchskull: yes, there are quite a few objections (obviously). I suggest waiting a couple of months on an RfC, as I think the decision either way on whether to include in the lead will be clearer by then - possibly to the extent that no RfC would be necessary. But either way, can I ask you to please turn down the temperature on your tone a couple of notches? VQuakr (talk) 18:51, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zaathras: I don't necessarily think that's true though. I see a mix of reliable news sources which often cover it even when discussing unrelated topics on him—around the same frequency as his convictions. But that doesn't mean that the convictions should be removed from the lede, and same with the attempt on him. Again, arbitrary opinions like "it has already healed", even if true, is unencyclopedic. Wikipedia articles are summaries which synthesize reliable sources, not subjective opinions by editors. Also, "it is far closer in scale and coverage to the guy who chucked a grenade at President Bush" I don't think that's true either, given that there isn't even an independent article on it on Wikipedia, despite decades of possible sources.

Quite the opposite SPECIFICO, because of reliable sources. Also I'm pretty sure that it'll be a huge part of his campaign.

GoodDay and VQuakr, an expansion of the dispute and RfC is exactly what I want to avoid. I hate lengthy discussions over things that have little meaning to me or outside my breadth, especially anything remotely political. I expected this to be very quick because, I am sorry to say this, but I'm not convinced by the rationales given to exclude the assassination attempt from the lede. I'm genuinely trying to give the benefit of the doubt and understand your perspective, but the recentism and WP:DUE arguments are simply not reflected by reliable sources, even very recently. What are your thoughts?

Wretchskull (talk) 10:02, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you add it, I won't revert. Also, if somebody removes it, I won't revert. It's not something I'm overly concerned over. GoodDay (talk) 19:18, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The benefit of the doubt is just something you give per WP:AGF; you don't need to announce it. Whether you are convinced by the rationales given does not matter. I do disagree with GoodDay, however. It has been contested and should not be re-added to the lead without clear consensus. VQuakr (talk) 22:17, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@VQuakr: I understand that. I'm just frustrated because, like I said, the objections aren't supported by reliable sources and is therefore unwarranted in my opinion. What are your thoughts on that? Wretchskull (talk) 08:12, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The objections aren't supported by reliable sources" isn't a meaningful statement in this context. VQuakr (talk) 08:18, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Exclude The significance of any event in an article is solely determined by its degree of coverage in reliable sources. Extensive coverage when it happened is not sufficient for someone who has been in the news every day for eight years.

Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, George Wallace, Jerry Ford and Ronald Reagan were all shot at, but sources do not give these attempts the same significance.

TFD (talk) 11:57, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Exclude: "Survived an assassination attempt" sounds like he spent 3 months in a hospital but managed to struggle to a recovery. This assassination attempt has no obviously greater importance for his biography than those of other presidents and candidates and public figures whose biography articles do not mention the incidents in the lead section. Teddy Roosevelt was shot and proceeded to give a 90-minute speech about the great importance of the progressive cause with a bullet lodged in his chest, but the article about him doesn't mention it in the lead section. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:07, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Peter Cooper (Age 84) is actually. The statement should be "Oldest Republican Presidential Nominee" 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:F817:63AE:2453:9C90 (talk) 18:22, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sheesh. At some point, there are so many qualifiers as to make the "record" useless. I think we're there. Baseball stats are of interest only to baseball fan(atic)s. Let's remove it. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:31, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oooh, maybe I could add that he's the only nominee who was saved by a miracle/divine intervention. "The doctor at the hospital said he never saw anything like this, he called it a miracle," said Trump. The doctor at the local hospital, which has a trauma center, told him he’s never seen anyone survive getting hit by an AR-15, Trump recalled. "By luck or by God, many people are saying it’s by God I’m still here," he said (courtesy of an interview he gave to the New York Post and the Washington Times en route to the RNC in Milwaukee). I started editing Attempted assassination of Donald Trump and was going to nix the Post but they're not reporting facts, just what Trump said, so I figure A 2024 RfC concluded that the New York Post is marginally reliable for entertainment coverage applies. The direct quotes in the WP article are also pretty entertaining. And the good doctor still hasn't seen anyone survive getting hit by an AR-15. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 19:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lol. I have no idea what you just said; must be my ADD again. What are you advocating here, exactly? ―Mandruss ☎ 19:55, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Um - I was feeling slightly giddy after reading the WP page and the NY Post article? Trump's age — pish and pshaw (that must date back to the times of Peter Who?). I went bold and mentioned a few other superlatives for a major-party nominee (first felon, first to be found liable for sexual abuse, first whose business was convicted of criminal tax fraud), so I'll probably be back here shortly defending my edit. I expect the people who support "oldest" will support them as well . Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:23, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're correct; the source says "oldest major party nominee" so I'm amending it to say that. I think it's pretty noteworthy being the oldest person nominated by a major party for the highest office in the land, so I disagree with deletion. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 18:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure that Trump is older than anyone who has been the formal nominee of any party, major or minor. Before anyone mentions Biden, he was younger 4 years ago than Trump is now and he dropped out of contention this year before he became the official nominee. Ths is a saying that started going around afterBiden dropped out. Since Trump and his supporters made such a big deal of Biden's age, the Democrats have started turning those questions and objections back on the Republicans--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:22, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree this is like baseball stats. We don't need it. Given increasing longevity, the age of candidates is set to increase.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:07, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not just Biden’s age. Also his dementia and gaffs like the “America can be defined in one word: a fuggiwuggi—uh—in the Himalayas with Xi JinPing”, and physical falls like the one from the bike and the one on the stairs to his Air Force One. Alexysun (talk) 08:52, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

W IP user. Alexysun (talk) 08:44, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Oldest" and then "oldest major-party" nominee were recent additions. I don't see a consensus for the addition, so I've reverted it for now. A qualified superlative — not that impressive, and Trump's age is not getting much mention in RS, much less than Agenda 2025, racism, misogyny, his criminal record (the "overdetails"), the latest awful/dumb thing he said, etc. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:29, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He's also the first major party nominee to have run against a woman major party nominee & will do so again. GoodDay (talk) 16:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mandruss, the shadow is caused by - what else - his raised fist. I uploaded a larger extract (File:Donald Trump speaking at Turning Point Action's Believers Summit, July 26, 2024, West Palm Beach.jpg) from the (File:Donald_Trump_(53911318596).jpg original image) but, judging by a couple of previous attempts to upload images, I don't know whether it will pass muster. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mandruss, typo in the template, so repeating your name. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What's the purpose of this thread? Knowing the cause of the weird shadow effect doesn't make it more acceptable. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:20, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If somebody wants to add a recent picture of Trump they can use the second extracted one. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They can try. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:13, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added a sentence regarding DJT's 1968 Draft deferment granted on the basis of alleged bone spurs in both feet. The subject has substantially arisen in recent months due to the campaign. Google noted that a Trump - bone spurs ostensible diagnosis has been recently searched for over 591,000 times. The situation had been well documented for nine years, including a very extensive investigation by the New York Times starting in 2015. The Wikipedia readership should not be denied access to this information. Activist (talk) 13:10, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Activist, your bold edit on August 8 was reverted on August 9. Please, self-revert your reinstatement of the challenged material. Discussion first, wait 24 hours from the time of your talk page message before reinstating. Also, why didn't you put your comment at the bottom of the Talk page? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:21, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have to apologize for adding the Talk on the "Bonespur" comments. I'm having terrible vision problems and expect I won't be able to edit Wikipedia for much longer. I've tried to sort this out, and hope I haven't confused things too much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Activist (talk • contribs) 13:38, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think this bit is UNDUE for this page. There are several other articles for which it's suitable. There was an epidemic of bonespurs around that time. SPECIFICO talk 20:02, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bonespurs are not contagious and most 1960's draft dodgers didn't have accommodating podiatrist tenants of their fathers to write the alleged diagnosis. But this particular faker is the only one currently running for president, at the same time deriding the U.S. military and simultaneously proclaiming his own supposed bravado. The 591 thousand people who made that Google search that I've noted previously may have been "spurred" on by his "suckers and losers" comments regarding the French cemetery where so many U.S. casualties were buried. His current VP candidate is busily and assiduously smearing the 24 years of military service of his opponent's VP candidate. Trump is noteworthy for having told 30,573 lies or misstatements of fact while in the White House, which was carefully documented by the Washington Post. Activist (talk) 02:11, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is worth a sentence in the article. It gets a lot of consistent coverage and is relevant to his biography. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:03, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We mention it in the last sentence of the "Early life" section: In October 1968, he was classified 1-Y, a conditional medical deferment,[13] and in 1972, he was reclassified 4-F, unfit for military service, due to bone spurs, permanently disqualifying him.[14] The NYT reported the podiatrist's daughters said their father often spoke of having provided a deferment-establishing bone spurs diagnosis as a courtesy to his landlord who was Trump's father Fred. I don't doubt the information but it's hearsay, and naming father and daughters is too much detail. The bone spurs made headlines when Trump first ran because he was permanently disqualified for a temporary condition, and he didn't remember which foot was affected. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 19:42, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Regarding the assassination attempt on Trump, the existing main text content was included in the main text without a separate subtitle, so the content was not highlighted and seemed to be hidden. However, I think that the assassination attempt attempted by the assassin with 8 bullets is the most interesting topic for Trump's life, which could take a person's life, and for those who support Trump, who make up nearly half of the American people. Regarding assigning a separate subtitle to this, please give your opinion on assigning a subtitle, and if there is anything to revise or supplement the content. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 01:37, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of section headings is navigation, not emphasis. It is difficult to assess the relative importance of aspects of a subject when events are recent, but it seems improbable that a minor wounding will end up being a particularly important aspect of a former President's life. VQuakr (talk) 02:02, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even though 45th President of U.S. dodged the bullet by an inch, saving his life, and the bullet wound be not be a minor injury, anyone who reading this article would have died if the bullet had hit any human in the face by an inch, and it would have been 100% fatal.

If we look more specifically at the evidence,

If you look at the attached video below, all eight bullets were aimed at the former president, and if the former president had not been able to dodge in time, that is, if he had not turned his head, he would have died at the scene.

• If you look at the specific time analyzed in the 24 minutes video, if you look at the attached video from 16 minutes 01 seconds to 16 minutes 07 seconds, you can see that the 5 seconds video clip, with 3D modeling, shows that the Presidential assassin's bullet was actually aimed to kill President Trump, and that President Trump dodged it by just an inch to save his life. the eight bullets by the assassin surely can kill anyone who is reading this article as you understand. ^[1]

Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:43, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a lot of ifs, and WP doesn't speculate. Trump did turn his head — for a reason other than literally dodging bullets — and ended up with a minor injury and an "iconic" picture that, just like the shooting, appears to be yesterday's news and something to be monetized. The shooting didn't change Trump's campaign strategy and rhetoric. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:22, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More likely the sharpshooter was just aiming to scare him or muss up his hair. Just adding speculation the contrary for balance. While the authorities stated they were investigating the marksman's history and social media profile, I have not seen any conclusions as to his motivations or intended outcome. We really know nothing except the outcome -- nothing for Trump, and the tragic death and injuries among his audience. It's therefore dubious even to call this an attempted assassination. We do not know the shooter's intent or attempted intent or intended attempt. If Trump starts speaking in a glass cage, as has been proposed, that may thrust this incident back into the news. SPECIFICO talk 16:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We got by RS and not insane theories. So let's just stick to what almost every high quality source says, which is it was an assassination attempt. We need to stop with the personal research you two. PackMecEng (talk) 18:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pushing baseless conspiracy theories, insane theories, personal research — will you be done with the denigration any time soon? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 19:14, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The editing of this article is actually a reality show called "Get Trump". In the current episode there is a contest to see how minimal the presentation of the assassination attempt can get. Bob K31416 (talk) 19:46, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, then our "show" lost to Britannica. They mention the felony convictions in the first paragraph of the lead, the other indictments and the civil suits in the second paragraph, and the impeachments in the third one. You have to scroll waaay down to find the short paragraph on the assassination attempt. Quote: "His injury was minor." I'm not sure whether we're ahead of or also lost to Conservapedia. They have a seven-paragraph section entitled "assassination attempt" which mentions everything from the "J6 witch hunt" to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to Theodore Roosevelt. The one thing they don’t mention is the actual shooting in Butler, PA. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:46, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure you're aware it's not denigration if it's well-founded. This page has long had an excess of what PME called personal research and we're not here to perform that kind of analysis—it's too vulnerable to personal bias. Some degree of it is necessary and appropriate, ie editorial judgment, making it impossible to draw a bright line. But we have taken it too far for so long, IMNSHO, that it seems normal. Words like "insane" may be out of line, but you might address the substance of the objection instead of the form. The latter is easy; the former is harder but more important. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:05, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gee, thanks to you, too. (PME: Priority Mail Express, Professional Military Education, Premature Ejaculation?) "Insane" MAY be out of line? I won’t waste my time arguing with the writer of that epithet. As for your arguments, please take a look at the editing history of the "attempted assassination" section. I added it a few weeks ago because of RS at the time. After it got trimmed to the one sentence, I removed the heading, added the Wikilink to the sentence, and moved it into the "2024 campaign" section in chronological order. I have now added "presumed assassination attempt" (as in "appearing to be true on the basis of evidence that may or may not be confirmed") to the sentence, per the cited and other RS. BTW, all I do is "personal research" - of online sources and books I have bought. I don’t have a staff to do it for me, and I prefer not to make up my own facts. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 21:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for belatedly responding to the substance. I note that you vociferously object to "insane" one sentence after asking whether "PME" (quite obviously PackMecEng) means premature ejaculation. Here's a mirror. My point is that comments like this one and this one are almost completely divorced from Wikipedia content policy (yours a little better than SPECIFICO's) and have little place in article talk. I think it's time we started to cut down on that, though it would be very difficult to quit cold-turkey. I'm far more concerned about that than what this article says about the shooting. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:01, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Declining the mirror — maybe it’s the humidity clogging my brain, but "PME" wasn’t obvious to me as an abbreviation for an editor’s name. It was just another abbreviation I didn’t find at Wikipedia:Wikipedia_abbreviations and then looked up "on the internet", results as expected. As for my "lot of ifs" comment, it was in response to this one by another experienced editor, so I didn’t WP:RS them. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 10:31, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the text of the current version[5], which consists of a single sentence in the article.

"On July 13, 2024, Trump was nicked on the ear by gunfire at a campaign rally in Butler Township, Butler County, Pennsylvania."

Note that it is not called an assassination attempt, which is consistent with SPECIFICO's personal idea that it may not have been that.

This can be compared to the section Assassination attempts in the Gerald Ford article. Bob K31416 (talk) 18:59, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the place where the assassin fired eight bullets at Trump, if it is said that this was not an assassination attempt, it will be seen as representing the opinions of supporters of the Democratic Party in the United States who are trying to downplay the assassination attempt. I think that an objective view on this should be based on the fact that the major American media outlets, such as the National Broadcasting Company (NBC), CBS (formerly the Columbia Broadcasting System), the American Broadcasting Company (ABC), and the Fox Broadcasting Company (Fox), have stated that the assassin fired several bullets at President Trump and that it was an assassination attempt. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:08, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per MOS:NAVLIST,

I will replace the previous normal campaign photo with an image of the related to the assassination attempt, as this is a significantly more impactful and relevant event for the section. Given the gravity of the incident, readers will likely find this image more engaging and informative.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 02:01, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That photo is not representative of his campaign and should not be used in that manner. Show his two-fisted Trump Dance. Much more emblemmatic of his rallies than a one-shot exception. SPECIFICO talk 02:51, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comment. I think the Two Fist Trump Dance would also add to the symbolism of the rally. If you noticed a photo that shows the rally dynamically, please post it. How about adding a suitable photo related to the assassination attempt? For example, a photo that shows how far away the assassin was from Trump. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:02, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We can't say he was injured. It's not specific enough and it sounds like a laceration to the kidney or Ronald Reagan style near-death lung puncture. He was scratched. As he explained to the world in his convention speech, the ear is richly supplied with blood vessels - hence the mess on his cheek. SPECIFICO talk 02:51, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We can say injured/injury precisely because it's very general. It's a word nobody can dispute, so it's hardly OR to say it. Not so for scratched/scratch; if you want to say that you'll need to show widespread use in RS. From what I've read, I don't think you can.

But injured/injury is not all we say as of yesterday. Since it's very general, we add more information as follows: "Former White House physician Ronny Jackson said he had seen the injury and that it was a two-centimeters-wide gunshot wound to Trump's right ear." I don't think that sounds anything like a laceration to the kidney or Ronald Reagan style near-death lung puncture. It certainly doesn't sound like a scratch. Jackson arguably has credibility issues, but we're attributing his words to him rather than accepting his words as Truth and stating them as fact using wikivoice. Compare and contrast: "The injury was a two-centimeters-wide gunshot wound to Trump's right ear."

Unless/until medical records are released/reported, I doubt we can do much better without OR and without consuming too much space for this article. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:35, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's fair to say that he was injured.

Let's say the person reading this was grazed by a bullet. If it was the same wound, if it was a fall and the same amount of blood was shed, or if it was a knife wound and the same amount of blood was shed, it could be expressed as a scratch.

However, since the wound is only 1 inch inside the face, it is a bullet wound that could take the life of the person reading this article, or if the bullet hit the inside of the face, it is reasonable to say that it is an injury.

Even if it is the same wound, if the cause is a bullet wound that could actually take the life of a person, it is medically considered an injury, and for this reason, major media outlets around the world reported that it was an obvious assassination attempt that saved the life by only 1 inch. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:13, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since we’re wading into the knowns, i.e., the details the Trump campaign released to the press, then we should also wade into the known unknowns RS mentioned. AP writes about the memo that was written by Jackson and released by the campaign: The bullet track, he said, "produced a 2 cm wide wound that extended down to the cartilaginous surface of the ear", i.e., an 0.79" skin-deep furrow, and that no sutures were required. (Or, as Jackson said earlier, the bullet took "a little bit off the top of his ear".) The AP source also says that the Trump campaign declined "to disclose medical records or hold briefings with the doctors who treated him at the hospital". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:33, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like there's a lot of contortions and contrivances here trying to minimize the close to death situation where a sniper on a rooftop with a powerful assault rifle shot at former president and presidential candidate Trump and got so close to killing him that the bullet hit his ear. The seriousness of the attack is further illustrated by the shooting death of a person nearby and the critical injury by gunshot of two others in the same attack with the assault rifle. Trump was very fortunate that he was not killed. Yet some editors are trying to diminish the significant danger to Trump's life by focusing attention on the minor nature of the wound. This reminds me of a time many decades ago when someone asked, "Have You No Sense of Decency?" Bob K31416 (talk) 04:04, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your comment (rant) is no more policy-based than those of the editors you're complaining about, and violates the spirit if not the letter of NOTFORUM, AGF, and NPA. Just because something is true, if in fact it's true, that doesn't mean it has any place on this page. If an editor Has No Sense of Decency, shaming them here is not going to force them to grow some. Stay focused on policy, not editor motives; if that's not enough, the AP2 area of the project is a lost cause anyway. And that may well be the case. I suggest realism and pragmatism. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That seems to standard across Wikipedia, therefore, the standard should be upheld for this article. NesserWiki (talk) 09:56, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Its in the lede. Slatersteven (talk) 09:58, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We already had a whole discussion about this. There was no consensus to include in the opening sentence, and it's already in the lead as Slatersteven said. — Czello ^(music) 09:59, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that photos related to Donald Trump appearing in movies or TV are suitable for this subheading. However, the existing photos of him watching a baseball game are not related to this subheading at all, so I think it would be appropriate to replace them with more suitable photos. Therefore, it would be appropriate to replace the photos with more relevant photos. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any that are not copyrighted? Slatersteven (talk) 11:59, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the photo of Rodman directly involved in the Celebrity Apprentice broadcast and taken in 2009 is copyrightable and suitable for the subtitle. I searched for various related photos for over 45 minutes, but the photo below is the only one that is copyrightable. > File:Trump and Rodman 2009.jpg - Trump with Dennis Rodman for Celebrity Apprentice Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:17, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What I mean is we can only use free to use (public domain) images, not ones that are someones copyright. Slatersteven (talk) 12:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about replacing this image with the current one from https://commons.wikimedia.org/ which is available without copyright restrictions: File:Trump and Rodman 2009.jpg? Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:29, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It really does not add anything of value to the article. Zaathras (talk) 12:42, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In 2018, the "Side ventures" section had a "Sports events" subsection with the picture of Trump at the baseball game and an "Apprentice" subsection with the Trump/Rodman photograph on the set of the show. (In case anyone wonders, the caption of Trump's Walk of Fame star back then was misleading. He received it for producing the Miss Universe contest.) The Trump/Rodman image was removed after this discussion. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:05, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Trump/Rodman per existing consensus linked above. Open to other suggestions. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:31, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the photo was relevant when "sports events" were located there in the past. It is no longer relevant to movie and TV titles, so could we please remove the irrelevant photo now, and add new photos when anyone find images later that are directly relevant to the subheading? Goodtiming8871 (talk) 23:23, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Goodtiming8871: I'm not married to that image, and my guess is that nobody really cares that much. That's what BOLD editing is for. I don't see that anybody has tried boldly removing that image, so I suggest you do so, citing MOS:SECTIONLOC or an equivalent guideline (image-related PAGs are scattered and often redundant). If your edit is challenged by reversion, the issue can come back here. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:46, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your suggestion, I will remove the redundant image based on MOS:SECTIONLOC, (image-related PAGs). Goodtiming8871 (talk) 04:30, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please add a "See also" section to the Donald Trump topic? Or maybe I can add one? From my understanding, it is missing from the Donald Trump Subject, so I would appreciate your opinion on this. There are candidates for the US presidential election and the current US presidents with "See also section" ^[1], ^[2], "See Also section" makes it very accessible, so even if there is a link in the text, the main related parts can be accessed right away, so I think this is necessary. By adding "See also" to the Donald Trump section to correct the imbalance with other Wikipedia relevant contents.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 04:44, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the section. It's optional, and this article is already longer than most. Per MOS:NAVLIST, Editors should try to put themselves in the readers' frame of mind and ask "Where will I likely want to go after reading this article? " Are the three lists in the "See also" section you added (List of United States presidential assassination attempts and plots, List of United States presidential elections by popular vote margin, and List of United States presidential candidates by number of votes received)? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:56, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Per MOS:NAVLIST, I've added navigational lists, which benefit readers by providing easy access to relevant Trump-related information. Given the article's length and comprehensive nature, a "see also" section is essential. This feature caters to readers who prefer a concise overview by allowing them to quickly locate specific topics. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 01:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After identifying the parts that need to be linked to the main article, I will also add a "See Also section" to add content that is not in the existing text or that may be of interest to those interested in Wikipedia in the run-up to the November 2024 US presidential election. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:42, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In other Wikipedia-related content, if there is a sub-item, the content is summarized in 3-5 lines, and a link to the main page is attached for the corresponding sub-item. However, this section does not have a summary, so the readability is poor, and if you like to see the content, you have to click on the link to check the other related content. Could you please add a summary? Or can I add it? If there is a summary, the readability will be improved, and it will be helpful to many other users. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:27, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I initially moved the link to the list into a sentence, then got to wondering where that heading and "main" came from in the first place. The article had an honors and awards section until 2017 when the article was much shorter. After a discussion on December 10 it was moved into the separate List of awards and honors received by Donald Trump which is currently linked in the Infobox "awards" parameter. The insertion of heading and "main" link into the article was overlooked at a time when there were numerous insertions and reverts because it was added in a large edit without being mentioned in the edit summary. It would be hard to summarize the content of the list in 3–5 lines, and even those 3–5 lines would necessitate citing quite a few sources. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for providing the subsection's history. A brief 3-5 line summary with an example source would suffice, as this subsection complements the main article, which already includes a detailed list of references. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 01:52, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The comprehensive list of awards and honors received by the 45th President Donald Trump has been compiled collaboratively by many users over a period of seven years, starting in 2017, and since it has been separated into a separate article, it seems appropriate to keep the subheadings in the main text to honor the contributions of these contributors. However, the key details are summarized concisely in three lines. The comprehensive references are available in a separate article, so examples are provided. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Slatersteven, have you seen this discussion? Goodtime shouldn't have added the section before the conclusion of the discussion. "Noted, and I'm going to add what I think we need to add" does not constitute a consensus. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:38, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, My main contribution to editing was to recover what many users have worked on for over 7 years. And there should be a summary. The current one-line summary could be improved a bit. For now, I will just attach a few references as examples. - it is the proposed edit,

Donald Trump has been granted a number of awards and accolades, both domestic ^{[1] [2]} and international.^[3][4][5] Goodtiming8871 (talk) 06:23, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure we need the links, after all they are supposed to be reading the main article, but fine have em. Slatersteven (talk) 09:24, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of awards and honors received by Donald Trump has 53 sources on honors awarded and honorary doctorates bestowed and rescinded, one of the reasons the long list was removed from this long article and moved into its own article in 2017. Why did you pick these sources? None of them pass the RS test, except possibly the Philadelphia Inquirer, and that one is the source for the Freedoms Foundation's President's Medal (not to be confused with the Presidential Medal of Freedom). It's one of the awards the Freedoms Foundation, according to their website, has awarded by the tens of thousands since 1949. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:20, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I seem to recall what was one of the issues, and why it got shifted out. So as to take the edit warring over what was and was not a notable award elsewhere. Slatersteven (talk) 17:35, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So why are you now supporting putting it back in? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:52, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I understand, the consensus is that the main page will have a summary, and most of the content will be moved to a separate page. If necessary, there will be a separate discussion about what is notable and what is not.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 05:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, the consensus was to remove the section:

Since that discussion, numerous awards have been added to the list (presidents tend to receive many awards), and the page now has 57 cited sources. A summary saying has been granted a number of awards and accolades, both domestic and international with a few sources for a few random awards isn't any more informative than the status quo ante, the "awards" link in the infobox. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:58, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article text describing Ronny Jackson as a Trump political ally -- cited to Associated Press -- has been removed on the theory that the word "ally" does not appear in the source. What the source says is that Jackson is a "staunch supporter" of Trump and then devotes several paragraphs to eviscerating Jackson as a credible witness. Somehow, either by my euphemistic "political ally" or otherwise, the sense of the cited source needs to be conveyed in our article text. SPECIFICO talk 19:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At what point does a desire for accuracy about the nature of the ear injury become obsessive? It's Just Not That Important in my view. If Jackson had substantially exaggerated, I suspect someone with firsthand knowledge would have leaked something to that effect. Any deeper analysis can be done at Attempted assassination of Donald Trump. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let's just be true to the sources instead of crafting narratives that are not following the cited sources. That would be the easiest and best. If you are for leaving the whole Ronny J 2 cm bit out, that would be fine too. SPECIFICO talk 21:23, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If we were using wikivoice, you'd have a point. We're not. Since I introduced the whole Ronny J 2 cm bit, it's fairly obvious that I'm not for leaving it out. It provides more information than simple "injury", information that seems more credible than not per my previous comment. It maybe wouldn't have been necessary if not for a certain editor's attempt to call it a mere scratch without sufficient RS support. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:38, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As for Let's just be true to the sources, I think you mean let's be true to the source that says what you want. I don't see much other RS seriously calling Jackson's account into question. Certainly not many saying it was a scratch. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:01, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not following that, Mandruss. Isn't that the AP source that you added when you added the 2 cm? I just tried to conform the article to the cited source, which goes on at considerable length to cast doubt on RJ as a credible or significant factfinder. SPECIFICO talk 13:39, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just looks like excessive detail and did not add value. I did not read it as the RS going to considerable length to cast doubt. PackMecEng (talk) 14:46, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shall we escort Ronny and his laceration from the page? It's not even clear that he actually examined the patient. SPECIFICO talk 17:46, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added the AP source, which has more info about the nature of the injury, and the sentence about Trump not disclosing the medical and ER records on injury and treatment. Unless the FBI has access to those and mentions them in the publicly released part of their report, that's all we'll ever find out. I also added the Wikilink to Jackson's page. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:50, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not following that, Mandruss... - The point is that we need to at least try to be true to the body of RS, not just the RS that we cite. As I tried to indicate, the AP source is not representative of the body of RS regarding the credibility of Jackson's memo. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:18, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jackson is not quoted. Trump presented a document attributed to Jackson. Jackson is roundly discredited by mainstream RS for the reasons in that cited article and many other reasons. There is no consensus to include this content as if it were of any medical significance. Further, given Trump's splendid recovery -- which today he boasted was due to the hand of God saving him to carry on his political role -- the whole issue of the wound is trivial. What may not turn out to be trivial is the spectacle of Trump addressing crowds from a glass cage like the parrots in the zoo and there may ultimately be psychological effects of this terrible shooting. But that will only be known some time in the future. When in doubt, take it out. Somebody will remove this fairly soon, I think, and correctly so. SPECIFICO talk 20:36, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the whole issue of the wound is trivial. You didn't think it was so trivial when you made this edit. It could've been left alone. I prefer the current status quo per my earlier comments, but I have no strong objection to reverting to the state prior to your edit. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ronny Jackson doesn't need to be mentioned in this article. The whole paragraph about the assassination attempt needs to be rewritten. R. G. Checkers ^talk 17:49, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Start rewriting! ―Mandruss ☎ 23:41, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed that Ronny should go. VQuakr (talk) 17:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ronny now booted by SPECIFICO.[6] ―Mandruss ☎ 22:51, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good; endorsed. DFlhb (talk) 09:32, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In light of the recent assassination attempt on the US president, This would be an interesting article for voters to consider regarding the safety of a leading presidential candidate representing the United States. This content would be a good addition to the campaign. ^[1] Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:55, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is undue for an article about Trump. Slatersteven (talk) 11:56, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't bulletproof glass, which was supposed to prevent assassination attempts during the campaign, help ease the concerns of many voters? Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:01, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is not our job (read wp:not), this tells us nothing about Trump. Slatersteven (talk) 12:06, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Slatersteven here. This information is not relevant for a biography of Trump, although it could potentially be worth mentioning in the article on his 2024 campaign. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:31, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comment Goodtiming8871 (talk) 09:04, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Saying the S.C.I. said the Russians did interfere in the elections to favor Trump is a Highly misleading sentence. It lacks context both before and after the sentence. You should definitely include the S.C.I. said there was NO COLLUSION between Russia and Donald Trump. And the S.C I. Is the F B I. Lead by director Robert Mueller. Stop calling it the Special Council Investigation. It's called the MUELLER REPORT. THE Russian Hoax was spearheaded by Adam Schiff and Nancy Pelosi. And the F.B.I was complicit in making the hoax credible. The hoax and all of its lies are completely exposed to the public in Congressional Hearings led by Jim Jordan. It's on YouTube. THAT sentence by itself talking about the Special Council and Russia should be immediately DELETED.There should be a proper section where the full context of the MUELLER report can be displayed. 96.79.132.6 (talk) 00:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All meaningless without reliable sources, per Wikipedia content policy. Number of reliable sources you bring to the discussion: 0. And your focus should be on the body section, not the lead. That's where we actually cite sources, and the lead is a very brief summary of that. Bring reliable sources to suggest improvements to that section and we can discuss them. Then we can discuss whether any change is needed in the lead, which is seriously space-constrained and never has room to fully explain complicated and nuanced issues. Readers who stop reading at the end of the lead, as you apparently did, will always leave less than fully informed, and that's on them.

Otherwise, stop wasting your time and, more importantly, ours. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:28, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just noticed: There should be a proper section where the full context of the MUELLER report can be displayed. Smh. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the proposal; the full context of the Mueller report. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 09:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The third paragraph of the lead currently says this:

A special counsel investigation established that Russia had interfered in the election to favor Trump.

Let’s change it to this:

Russia unlawfully interfered in that election in Trump’s favor, but investigators have reached no consensus that the Trump campaign unlawfully colluded with Russia, or that Russia affected the election outcome.

The latter is more neutral and more informative. The current version refers to a “special counsel” investigation, which includes an investigation of Trump himself, but we completely omit that no charges against Trump were brought or recommended. Instead, we now suggest that investigators may have found Trump committed a crime, that he may have been charged with it, that he may have admitted it, that he may have become president because of it, etc. In other words, the current sentence is too vague as it stands now, and thus too likely to mislead. I don’t know of any other BLP lead that says the subject was investigated for an offense, and then lets that information dangle without elaboration in the lead.

There were several official investigations of Russian interference in 2016, so let’s speak globally instead of just about the Mueller investigation. And let’s accurately summarize the main results: (1) Russia interfered, (2) no unlawful collusion by Trump has been charged or proved, and (3) no effect on the election outcome has been proved. I am purposely omitting wikilinks and footnotes for now, for simplicity, but we can get to that later. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:14, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support : the updated sentence; it's clear and removed misleading information or potential misunderstanding to the previous issues. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 09:17, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]