Talk:Orange Order: Difference between revisions

The CAIN website says the purple star on orange was a symbol of the Williamite forces. I'm guessing the St Georges cross is to show loyalty to England. Although to be honest I don't know much more than that, someone on here is bound to know more?  <font="center" color="#FFFFFF"> theKeith  Talk!  21:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The orange field is the heraldic colour associated with the House of Orange (formerly the House of Orange-Nassau), ruling house of Holland after their expulsion of the Spaniards, and of King William III of Great Britain and Ireland, who was invited by Parliament to become Britain's ruler after passing over all other eligible males on account of their Catholicism. The canton is the flag of St George, specifically the national flag of England as distinct from the Union Flag or Royal Standard; it is also the basis of the later flag of Northern Ireland. The charge of a purple star in the lower fly relates to James Wilson's utterance, when his brother Freemasons refused to organise into a Protestant militia, that he "would light a star [...] which would eclipse them forever". It's purple colour probably derives from one of the Institution's disputed links with Freemasonry: a continuation and completion of the Third Degree in Craft Masonry, called the Royal Arch, refers at one point to a Purple Veil, and the significance of the colour is Loyalty. Whence evidently derives the Orange Institution's Royal Arch Purple degree, even though the content is entirely different from Royal Arch, and has more in common with a Masonic Third.

Nuttyskin 02:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've Deleted the Roots section as it adds little to any understanding of the Orange Order itself. Instead I've added references to the Plantation of Ulster, the Irish Rebellion of 1641 and the Williamite war in Ireland in the (now rather inelegant) first sentence of the History section.

If you want to see the edit please go here.

JASpencer 20:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

These two paragraphs contradict each other as written:

Protestant groups were formed to oppose the Catholic groups, one of which was the exclusively [[Anglican]] [[Peep O'Day Boys]], which later became the Orange Order.{{fact}}

and:

After a disturbance in [[Benburb]] on 24th June 1794, in which Protestant homes were attacked, the [[Freemasons]]' organisation was appealed to by one of its members, [[James Wilson (Orangeman)|James Wilson]], to organise themselves to defend the Protestant population.{{fact}}

JASpencer 21:04, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Been removed. The Peep O'Days citation isn't too reliable though. JASpencer 21:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article states "Members are required to be Protestant with a belief in the Trinity, which excludes Unitarians and certain other Christian denominations and all non-Christians." However the qualifications cited in the footnote only mention that "An Orangeman should have a sincere love and veneration for his Heavenly Father; a humble and steadfast faith in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, believing in Him as the only Mediator between God and man." This does not seem to be explicitly trinitarian; it does not mention the deity of Christ or of the Holy Spirit, nor does it exclude a unitarian belief merely in God as Father and Jesus as mediator. I understand that the present Grand Master in Ireland is unitarian. Unless someone can cite firm evidence that the Order is trinitarian I would wish to query the section 'Requirements for entry'

---

the Order is indeed Trinitarian.

Members are not allowed to be married to a Roman Catholic or have a Catholic mother. That's a nice friendly organization for you !

Nor are members expected to be Jewish, Muslim or athiest. The organisation is a Christian fraternity which adheres particularly to Protestantism.

If you were not a Protestant, I would seriously question the sanity of wanting to join this particular organisation. If you are male, do you sarcastically call the Womens' Institute a "nice friendly organisation"?

Members are actually "allowed" to be married to Roman Catholics, and have catholic parents by the way. Before asserting your political viewpoint, perhaps it would help if you actually had some knowledge of the subject you're talking about. --Mal 02:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I undid the cut and paste move of February 2006 from Orange Order to Orange Institution, but there is talk both at Talk:Orange Order and Talk:Orange Institution. I prefer the former, as do the incoming links. --Henrygb 00:50, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm moving this back to the proper title for the article (as per the reason for the move in the first place), and merging the talk pages into this one. --Mal 18:53, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why has this been moved from a name that is well known to everyone Orange Order and to a name that is barely reflected even in the article where Orange Order outweighs Orange Institution by a large amount? I don't see any discussion on the Talk page about this move. Can someone explain, preferably in the first paragraph of the article. Dabbler 22:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I quite agree with Dabbler. I see no discussion of this move anywhere---not that the talkpages can be traced at this point---and Orange Institution is not a common name. ---Charles 22:39, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was always called the Orange Order. Are there other motives for this change? MelForbes 23:14, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Curious why there is practically no explanation at all about the roots of the word 'Orange' in the context of this article/topic and actually very little in general about William of Orange. A bit too much preoccupation with the more contentious elements of this article perhaps? Rgds, JOHN NATHANN 18:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Orange Halls have often been the target of Republican/Nationalist vandalism, paint bombings, sectarian graffiti and arson attacks with many of the halls suffering severe damage, if not complete destruction.

Could someone please help me with rewording this sentence? "Often" is a Weasel word, how often does this happen? I think there is a lot of POV in this sentence. Drinkanotherday 16:51, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just remove the word "often" completely. beano 15:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such thing as the City of Derry Grand Lodge, County Londonderry GAA or Derry Port and Harbour Commissioner. It is just wrong to refer to Derry when talking about the Orange Order.Traditional unionist 09:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated the article. The county lodges are "Londonderry County" and "City of Londonderry" as per [2]. beano 15:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also Londonderry is still the official name on the City Charter. Thats something that can't be changed by Derry City Council only by the Monarch. Mabuska 21:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Derry is the name of the City and the county, the London plantation company was given the rights to exploit the area. Calling the place LondonDerry is akin to calling it IBMDerry or MatsushitaDerry. It'll all be changed soon enough.

Its intrinsically a sectarian organisation. They celebrate William of Orange's victory over the Jacobites. What was did William have that Jacob didn't? Protestant faith!

I have provided a ref for this claim please dont edit war on this. BigDunc 12:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are you in breach of WP:3RR yet? Sectarian is a POV term. If we agree this then we will have to add a sectarian tag to every religious movement in the world. That would be daftTraditional unionist 12:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How can sectarian be a PoV term look at sectarian. And the Catholic Church are not sectarian they do not barr anyone joining who where another religon neither do Protestant, Muslim or Hindu they all actively encourage new members from any other religous organisation.BigDunc 12:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You also ignore that many protestants are barred from membership, mainly unitarians. I know someone who is a member, his parents are catholic and he was raised a catholic. Sectarian is not an acceptable term to use for the Orange in an encyclopedia.Traditional unionist 12:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are you not proving my point "many protestants are barred from membership, mainly unitarians" due to there religon so it is sectarian.BigDunc 12:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Traditional unionist I hope you will be taking out this "PoV" term "sectarian graffiti" in the article too, seen as you are against the use of the word. BigDunc 13:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sectarian is sourced and should stay, although I have no objections to it being moved or rephrased. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The source admits in the introduction that the book is biased. Just because Michael Farrell calls it sectarian doesn't make it true.Traditional unionist 15:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What does Farrell have to do with anything? If you object to Farrell then remove Farrell, but that still leaves another source. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just because someone once wrote that the order is sectarian doesn't make it true. The Pope is a presbyterian. You can reference that statement to here, but it's still untrue. Not that that's a perfect example as it's black and white. Sectarian is a subjective term, as well as being POV.Traditional unionist 15:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:NPOV, you cannot remove sectarian because you don't like the truth. I suggested you rephrase it if you didn't like the wording, and you continued to remove it. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is not the truth, you can't add it because that is your POV.Traditional unionist 15:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My POV? I don't add my POV to articles, I add sourced content. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The only one pushing an unsourced PoV is yourself Traditional unionist I have added a source and so has One Night In Hackney_{. BigDunc} 15:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the answer to this is to look how this is treated in the article Ancient Order of Hibernians. I quote: Its mixture of religion and politics (similar to that of the Protestant Orange Order) has led its critics to accuse it of sectarianism and anti-Protestantism. And also As a vehicle for Irish nationalism, the AOH greatly influenced the sectarian aspect of Irish politics in the early twentieth century and by 1914 had saturated the entire island. I think that is fairly handled. I would expect the same kind of language in the Orange Institution article. --81.132.246.132 18:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

“There is quite as little doubt that this shocking society [Orange Order] was encouraged by the Government, and by most of the magistrates and country gentlemen to keep alive religious animosity, and prevent the spread of the United Irish organization. An union of Irishmen, upon the just, liberal, and fraternal basis of this organization, - would have - rendered impossible that other “Union” on which Mr. Pitt had set his heart—the Union of Ireland with England.” Quote taken from John Mitchel’s History of Ireland published in 1868. --Domer48 22:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The chief object of the Government and its agents was now to invent and disseminate fearful rumours of intended massacres of all the Protestant people by the Catholics.

Dr. Madden says: — “Efforts were -made to infuse into the mind of the Protestant feelings of distrust to his Catholic fellow-countrymen. Popish plots and conspiracies were fabricated with a practical facility, which some influential authorities conceived it no degradation to stoop to; and alarming reports of these dark confederations were circulated with a restless assiduity.” The effects were soon apparent in the atrocities committed by the Orangemen in Armagh, and by the magistrates and military in other counties. --Domer48 22:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that saying it is "sectarian" is ok. It carries connotations. Wikidictionary, for example, under the "sectarian" definition (see here), has "bigoted" and "narrow-minded" as part of the definition. I think we can say that the Order has been accused of it. This link provides a good refernece should anyone wish to put this into this article, or the Ancient Order of Hibernians. If all we're saying is that it is a sect that only allows some people in, why don't we just state it like that without using the word?Logoistic 23:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Domer: if you are thinking of putting this kind of stuff in the article,you will need strong references for, for e.g., instances of these "fearful rumours" rather than the opinion of a particular author. Logoistic 23:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Domer48 will you please read what others write and try to build a consensual article and not just quote from sources which are, by their very nature, one sided and often sectarian. I have proposed a solution and instead of discussing it, you've quoted from a well known radical nationalist, from 2 centuries ago. This is not a soap box for you to air your political beliefs. I don't doubt that at times certain OO members and lodges have been sectarian (as I do with the AOH), however we are helping write an encyclopedic article. If you are going to state that the OO is sectarian, you should provide rock solid current sources. If you disagreed with someone elses additions to an article, you would ask for the same. We are not trying to push our political beliefs on others (or we shouldn't be). A lot of articles by their nature will have to be built on consensus. If you don't want to help achieve that consensus, you should not be involved in the Wikipedia project at all. --81.132.246.132 00:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry where is the "proposed a solution," you have suggested? --Domer48 12:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Editors removing a sourced claim that they do not like is what is causing the problem on this page. Someone provide a source that disproves this claim or stop reverting no one wants an edit war.BigDunc 13:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the uncited section and included the reference without changing the more encyclopedic wording. Hopefully this is a useful compromise. ELIMINATORJR 13:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the reference, but lose the wording? What is the point of the reference? --Domer48 15:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly what is the point in changing the wording and keeping the reference.BigDunc 15:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Because the ref reinforces the fact it's a Protestant-only movement, therefore it applies. I'm trying to avoid the article using any language that's only going to get edit-warred about. ELIMINATORJR 16:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a good compromise. At least one that hopefully won't get edit warred. I had suggested looking at the AOH and how it was treated in that article (see above 18:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)). I would suggest: Its mixture of religion and politics (similar to that of the Ancient Order of Hibernians) has led its critics to accuse it of sectarianism and anti-Catholicism. It is factually accurate, and I doubt if its members and supporters are going to say that it is sectarian. Remember this is an encyclopedic article we are writing, which should stand up to scrutiny from all sides. --81.132.246.132 17:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Still NO ONE can give a source or reference to disprove it is not a sectarian organisation, yet insist on removing sources. An encyclopedic article should present facts warts and all. BigDunc 17:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The sources are still there. Can we try to avoid pushing these articles into states that are going to provoke yet more tiresome edit-warring? ELIMINATORJR 18:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BigDunc: some words carry connotations even if they are the truth. Many people reject that "activist" organisations such as the IRA should be termed "terrorist" because of the connotations that it carries, and indeed it is not used in Wikipedia articles unless it is stating who describes/classifies it as "terrorist". I think "sectarian" is the same. Implying that the Orange Order is "bigoted" and "narrow minded", as "sectarian" is often defined (I have given the link to Wikidictionary), is not showing "warts and all", but is a way of introducing slander by the back door. Have a look at Wikipedia:Words to avoid. Logoistic 23:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link Logoistic but found this on google "Sectarianism is an adherence to a particular sect or party or denomination." Can anyone really say that this does not apply here. And if the AOH is a sectarian organisation it should be put in to that article if a source can be found for it.BigDunc 09:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"The Order…for more than a century it has functioned in essence as a pan-Protestant front, helping to unify various strands within unionism. Although its leaders deny any suggestion that it is anti-Catholic, it has been consistently anti-ecumenical and opposed to religious integration. While its regulations tell its members to abstain from uncharitable words, actions, or sentiments against Catholics, they are also pledged to “resist the ascendancy of that church” by all lawful means. They are also warned not to attend “any act or ceremony of Popish worship”, and a number have been expelled or otherwise disciplined for doing so." Through the Minefield, by David McKittrick, The Blackstaff press, Belfast, 1999, ISBN 0 85640 652 X. I just added this to the discussion, it dose show, with my previous edits, that this accusation is not new or uncommon. --Domer48 10:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

“Orangemen like to present their annual festival as a celebration of civil and religious liberty, expressing their cultural heritage and identity in a spectacle of marching enjoyed by all. The reality can be quite different. The parades that dominate the summer months often do so provocatively and selfishly without regard to the cost in terms of community relations or the public purse. Some of the marches are unmistakably triumphal. Participants see them as a continuing and vigorous manifestation of their Protestantism, Unionism and loyalty to the British Crown. They subconsciously under line divisions and seek to assert ascendancy. Some have likened the way that local lodges parade the limits of their parishes to the way that a tom cat marks out territory, signalling the Orangemen’s unyielding belief that they are a powerful majority who will resist any process of change.” Again I simply wish to illustrate that there is a precipitation of the Order that is not shared by its members. This quote is taken from Chris Ryders and Vincent Kearney’s book Drumcree: The Orange Order’s Last Stand, Methuen Publishing Ltd, London, 2001, ISBN 0 413 76260 2. --Domer48 10:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I say again, just because someone said it doesn't make it true. Neither this article, nor the AOH one should say that they are sectarian bodies in a matter of fact way - it's not true.Traditional unionist 11:50, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It was not done in a matter of fact way it was referenced by 2 editors and I have another one from there own constitution which also backs up the claim. BigDunc 12:15, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The quotes may back up that it is a protestant organisation that does not allow catholics. That does NOT make it sectarian in the contemporary and Northern Ireland colloquial meaning of the word.Traditional unionist 13:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As i said above "Sectarianism is an adherence to a particular sect or party or denomination." are you saying this does not apply to the OO. BigDunc 14:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The dictionary definition of the word is neutral - it would not be neutral to say that the Orange is sectarian. That would clearly be a negative connotation.Traditional unionist 14:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am presenting the facts "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources)." WP:NPOV Just because you dont agree with them does not mean it should be removed. BigDunc 14:40, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1) I am not the only one who disagrees 2) it is clearly POV to state that the Orange is sectarian.Traditional unionist 15:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Who else disagrees, can they be quoted by a relilable source. Are you suggesting that the references are POV, or the editors are pushing a POV. Should we do away with references, and cite only sources which you agree with? Since you have yet to provide a reference to support your opinion, I see no reason why the use of sectarian can not be used to describe th OO. If you do provide a reference, that to can be added to balance any references all ready there? --Domer48 17:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This definition clearly shows why using the term as a matter of fact would be POV.Traditional unionist 19:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd just like to point that all that this bickering is doing is ensuring that the article doesn't get unprotected any time soon. If one word causes such a rigmarole, what are the chances of a NPOV version of the article at all? ELIMINATORJR 19:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I beg to differ, this is not bickering, this is a discussion. The simple fact of the matter is 1) there have been a number of references put forward to show that the OO is a sectarian organisation. The sources are historical, contemporary, reliable and verifiable. 2) Not one source has been put forward to suggest otherwise. Just because someone dose not like the information, is not sufficient reason to keep this information out of the article. 3) The article will not remain locked because there is a disagreement here on the discussion page. The article will be unlocked, the referenced information will be added, and it is up to editors to provide contrary views to those included in the article. 4) Editors who engage in edit warring, or removing sourced or referenced material simply because they do not like it, will have to explain themselves to administrators. I would like to add, that I will only be contributing to the discussion page, in order to improve my approach to controversial dialogue. --Domer48 20:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You have provided sources from, frankly, self confessed bigots. I don't own a copy of the Orange State, but Farrell admits that his book is utterly biased in the introduction. The other references are also known to be Nationalist biased. I have provided a reference that shows the term sectarian in its true light - there is no way that the Orange can be called sectarian and that to be encyclopedic. It isn't encyclopedic, it is nationalist propaganda, and cannot be used.Traditional unionist 20:40, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]