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I was just checking some changes that moved "draft" values to "depth" and see we may have a bit of an interesting problem as depth and draft are two entirely different measurements but authoritative Lloyd's uses "depth" when the same ship described in other references specify "draft" for the same (or approximately the same) value. Taking one ship as a quick example, the C-2 Mormachawk (1939):

• Lloyds: 27-5 "Depth"
• DANFS: 26'5" "draft"

And we know that was a Type C2 ship where that article notes:

The first C2s were 459 feet (140 m) long, 63 feet (19 m) broad, and 40 feet (12 m) deep, with a 25-foot (8 m) draft.

Maybe we need to define just what measurements Lloyd's is using there as "Depth" and whether the term is being used as we understand it. Palmeira (talk) 16:46, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Depth and draught/draft are two different things, so one would expect the measurements to be different. With the online Lloyd's Registers from 1930-45, draught (if given) is in the far right column. Mjroots (talk) 18:16, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned—depth and draft/draught do not measure the same thing at all. Far right column? The column with the three values, Moulded depth, Freeboard amidships and Corresponding draught/draft is blank more often than not. In the ship I mentioned, Mormachawk (1939), above the Lloyd's dimensions are given as 438-3|63-2|27-5 and that 27-5 is in the sub column that in English headings is headed with "Depth" so the value is not that different from other references' "draft" which should roughly at least compare to "moulded depth" less freeboard as seen in the diagram below. So, if we take Lloyd's 27-5 to be depth as in moulded depth and the specifications for C2's and Navy drafts we have a ship without freeboard! In addition, that "Depth" value in "Dimensions" does not usually correlate that with the Moulded depth approximate equaling freeboard + draught so it is representing a different form of "depth" measurement. In a number of cases I have just checked it often approximates the "Corresponding draught" value more closely than the "Moulded depth" value. The problem, and I've been guilty as well, is plugging these values into infobox slots that may not apply. In my opinion the infoboxes are overly complex with details largely of interest to naval architects, builders and ship's deck officers—and ship's officers I've worked with probably have that moulded depth somewhere other than the top of their heads while draft is certainly a critical value. Do we really need those measurements in a general interest "encyclopedia"? Do we need to just do a better job of defining just what is meant here and in references (and some of those are pretty arcane) and in placing values against infobox terms? Palmeira (talk) 02:05, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In the example you give for Mormachawk, no draught/draft measurement is given. Looking up the page to Marioka Maru, you will see length 360-0, breadth 51-2, depth 28-5, and in the rightmost column draught 28-8. Mjroots (talk) 07:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. See Hull_(watercraft)#Metrics and this diagram. →

Kablammo (talk) 20:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, nice diagram showing the differences. My point is not what those measurements mean but that the infobox opportunities to plug a value into the wrong measurement is excessive and that values for one being plugged into another is being done. I've done it myself. As above, the issue is one of highly varied things being measured using different measurement techniques (small book required to cover it all) even for the same thing as can be seen by digging into a single ship's "moulded depth" from a builder as compared to Lloyd's as one example. I could only grin looking at this page and seeing "Length Between Perpendiculars (LBP). Builder's Style", "Length Between Perpendiculars. (LBP) Board of Trade Style" and "Depth moulded to 'C' deck - 64' 3". (Lloyd's Register has 59' 6", using a different method of measurement.)"! Palmeira (talk) 02:05, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There are different measures of depth, see Builder's_Old_Measurement#Depth, and it would not be surprising that in some cases depth of hold approximates draught, even though freeboard extends above that. Kablammo (talk) 14:07, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That is where it gets "fun" though. How many ways can name for "draft" alone? I can think of several off hand. With regard to Lloyd's, the "Depth" value within Lloyd's "Dimensions" column is very often equal to or very closely matched "draft/draught" in other references—in fact some official documents I use frequently simply take those Lloyd's dimensions as the L x B x draft for their dimensions. As a result of closer inspection during this discussion I am now interested in just what Lloyd's is measuring—just which specific line on one of those diagrams is being represented. Taking another Lloyd's page from 1934—35 there is a ship I recently worked on here as well as some samples of those measurements. SS Antigua is on that page and there is another reference that should be authoritative (Official Organ: Pacific American Steamship Association/Shipowners' Association of the Pacific Coast) New Turbo-Electric Steamship Antigua—a ship whose sisters became naval vessels such as Ariel that here is USS Ariel (AF-22). For that ship Lloyd's "Depth" in "Dimensions" is 24-1 which is close enough to "Designed draft, molded 24-0" in that shipowner/builder's journal and sister ship's DANFS dr. 26" (military loading or different methods?). Case closed? Not at all. On that Lloyd's page drop down to Antinea and look at the "Depth" and "draught" values where the dimensions value almost splits "moulded depth" and "draught" values (Yikes! low freeboard!) and then look at that page above I "checked" and RMS Queen Mary where that "Depth" is 68-5 and "Draught" is 41-4½ and Wiki has 39 feet (earlier Lloyd's values of 38-10½). Now the rest of the ships on that page have the two values more closely matching, but just what and how is Lloyd's measuring for each thing there? I am no longer quite so sure! Unfortunately I no longer have casual access to the nautical libraries I once had for work, one that had Lloyd's volumes going back into the late 1800s, so I cannot trace the story. We "ship people" may have some fun trying to do so.

My actual point remains. We have a cloud of sometimes uncertainly defined values trying to settle into some slots in the infoboxes that are themselves not precisely and technically defined. Where possible we should explain in text, but that end result could be a huge and very technical section full of ship's architect/builder/operator specifics of little meaning or just confusing to readers. Should we begin agreeing on simplification? Palmeira (talk) 15:54, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed a lot of ship infoboxes from draught/draft to depth on the grounds of verifiability: Lloyd's Register is a source that we trust for for many ship dimensions, so I have taken its entries at face value. The Register does include draughts for the majority of ships about which I write, so I add them too. I note that where other contributors have given draughts from other sources, these sometimes differ markedly from Lloyd's entries. These are generally merchant ships that have been requisitioned for naval service. But whereas depth is fixed, draught varies subject to many factors. If a merchant ship has been modified for naval service, might it not displace more and therefore acquire a deeper draught?

I am no expert on such details: I simply transcribe what I see and tell stories about ships. I will trust those of you with more technical insight to determine what we should do. Best wishes, Motacilla (talk) 08:40, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Motacilla, the draft/depth of the ship that got my attention, USAT Meigs, is covered in some detail PMR, June 1921—a nice 3 page article with profiles and such as well as detail on construction. That is useful for comparing with Lloyd's for the same ship where that "Depth" in dimensions is 26-2. Two depths and one draft are noted in the article: "Depth molded to second deck—29' 9"", "Depth molded to upper deck—38' 3"" with "Draft, load (designed)—28' 11¼"" (close correlation between loaded draft and depth to second deck: 9.75 inches difference in this ship) so it looks as if the variance in Lloyd's from approximating draft to very different depends on which deck is used and that may depend on type and specific design of a ship (cargo vs. passenger for example). Then . . . there are several definitions of "deck" among casual users of the term, i.e., the "shelter deck" upon which one walks in the sea breeze is not strictly speaking a "deck" in design and technical usage (it shelters the "real" deck suitable for heavy cargo). Palmeira (talk) 18:21, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Motacilla: - you are correct. Adding weigh (e.g. armour) to a ship means that it will weigh more. According to Archimedes' Principle, it will then displace more water, and thus have a deeper draught and shallower freeboard. Mjroots (talk) 09:24, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Major modifications must deal with the stability issues so design draft is something one messes about with using great care in keeping those centers of gravity and metacentric height values from becoming disastrous. Palmeira (talk) 14:13, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It should be noted that beam x length x draft/draught is the 'standard' means of measuring ships; 'depth' is a specialty item for the vast majority. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Design draft is the key, and Bushranger is correct in that l x b x draft/draught is the usual basic dimension in all but technical usage. Note that quote from the Antigua specs: "Designed draft, molded 24-0". That is a specific characteristic of the ship and fixed—until a major modification changes the design. Unfortunately there seem to be different ways of measuring design draft, so modifiers like "moulded" are required (note the same with "depth"). That is why you will find ships heavily modified for naval service changing design draft and some permanently "damaging" accommodations for stability. Mormachawk (1942) is an example of that. Scrapped because it was not economical to reconvert after "permanent ballast" in the form of "Cement blocks 15" x 15" x 15" x 12" secured by "Braces and shores" in holds according to one of the MARAD vessel status cards. When you read the technical stuff you will find many ship's drafts are of importance and one presail check is a walk around checking trim by bow and stern draft checks. Draft amidships, where the load lines will show summer, winter and other "drafts" that vary according to season and from polar to tropical waters or ventures into fresh are measured. So, which draft? Bow? Stern? Midships? In summer? Up in Bergen or down in Rio? Loaded? Light? Those vary all the time, even over days as fuel is consumed unless someone is trimming carefully, and are working ship's officers things critical for navigation and safety.

Design draft is stable, a ship characteristic, until "redesign"—and somewhere in my files are photos of plans for conversion of military cargo types from one use to another in which there is a note on change in design draft with consequent stability issues. Fool with design draft too much and you have a stability issue; thus all that concrete poured into deep holds to keep somewhere near that designed draft despite going from lots of heavy cargo to light troops in transit. Now, as time allows, I am going to dig into just what measurement/how Lloyd's is coming up with that "Depth" in dimensions that very frequently approximates design draft, as in the Mormachawk (1939) I gave up top, with glaring and sometimes spectacular deviations. In the meantime I am going to be more careful in plugging that value into "draft" to make sure it is not one of the wild deviations from other references' "draft" values. We all need to remember there are perhaps too few short, common names describing too many measurements (Unless the readers are tax or toll collectors some measurements are effectively meaningless. Why were turret deck ships popular for a while?) and be careful what we put where. Palmeira (talk) 14:13, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Here's another unnamed warship for you from the State Library of Queensland's archive. The caption says "circa 1920" which may tally with the clothes of the spectators in the foreground. To my untrained eye she looks like a Template:Sclass-, but they were completed in 1930 and '31. Expert opinions please?

Best wishes, Motacilla (talk) 08:40, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hardly expert, but I'd say she's a C-class cruiser, one of the Carlisle sub class. Almost all of them served in the Far East in the 1920s, making a stop over in Australia very likely. The 1920s date tallies with the design of the masts incidentally, and the bridge design rules out the York class. Benea (talk) 10:13, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly looks like a member of the Carlisle subclass - the "trawler" bow is the giveaway. But as to which ship it is, it'd be very difficult to determine. Parsecboy (talk) 15:20, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! Harej (talk) 15:17, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:48, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just an FYI to let people know that 46.64.178.3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has been engaging in some weird editing that is reminiscent of the blocked IP 94.193.131.253. Some of you may recall how much trouble the latter caused with their subtle vandalism of hundreds of ship articles. This one seems to be doing the same sort of ting on the same articles. Extra eyes would be appreciated. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:08, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored all affected articles to their last good state. Any further disruption should be reported to WP:AIV. Mjroots (talk) 20:44, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I opened an SPI investigation earlier today. But SPI is severely backlogged, so who knows how long that will take. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:00, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion re the use of Gross Tonnage or Gross Register Tonnage is taking place at talk:SS Monroe (1902). Mjroots (talk) 17:24, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is a new category created from some work to Template:Surviving ocean going ships, which uses the template to add the category to ship articles. WP:TEMPLATECAT has reasons why this shouldn't be done for mainspace articles, but I have some longstanding-ish concerns over the whole template and category structure anyway. Surviving ocean-going ships seems way too widely defined for a template. This is all ships built since the 1960s essentially that still exist. There are many many many of them, already it would seem too many for a template, and still more that don't have articles. For example, the British National Historic Ships has over 5,000 ships and vessels, virtually all of them over 50 years old, on its registers. The inclusion criteria is not well defined as it is. The name of the category is also extremely vague, and a rename of some sorts would be in order, though I'm not sure we want to group every ship over 50 years old in a single category anyway, let alone a template. I'd thought I'd bring this here for further discussion first, before starting to formalise things with WP:CFD or WP:TFD. Benea (talk) 21:18, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]