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Notability

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@Egghead06: I don't think notability is an issue. You're right - FA WSL is not fully professional (it's semi-professional with a limited number of full-time players) so she doesn't meet the WP:ATH criteria, but I have a hard time believing she doesn't meet WP:GNG. Besides match reports and England team news, she's been the subject of non-trivial coverage by multiple sources:

Plus, given the increased coverage of women's football in England, she frequently appears in mainstream sources. Mosmof (talk) 14:18, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tend to agree with you on reflection. Have never been convinced that WP:NFOOTBALL is fit for purpose and excludes all but international female players in the UK. As far as I am concerned, feel free to remove the Notability tag.--Egghead06 (talk) 16:30, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Beth Mead: Personal life

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Please do not remove the section referring to Mead's relationship and Pink News/Gar Star News sources. These are reputable news sources and they have been used in many Wikipedia articles. The information provided by them cannot be regarded as "false" unless proven otherwise by another reputable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AmSam13 (talk • contribs) 12:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@AmSam13: Per Pink News' entry on WP:PERENNIAL, it is designated as "generally unreliable":

There is consensus that PinkNews is generally unreliable, except for quotes of a living person's self-identification of their sexual orientation. If PinkNews republishes claims from a reliable source, cite the original source instead of PinkNews.

—Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 15:47, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is a wider issue/problem here, arising out of the 'lockdown' and it becoming evident that many female soccer players are sharing households. My understanding of the rules is that we'd still need a very decent source (this sort of thing) before we can label them lesbians. There's been links to some individuals' social media used as sources, which obviously isn't good enough. And neither are links to sub-tabloid dross like PinkNews. I see from my watchlist there are loads of other players involved, so perhaps a discussion at a higher or more central level would be helpful? Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 16:22, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Bring back Daz Sampson. When I check the PinkNews reference, Mead's only mention is Footballer for Arsenal and the English national team, helping to dispel the stigma surrounding LGBT+ football players. That does not imply that she herself is LGBT. A tweet that took a screencap has the quote I think if players like me and Danielle can make people feel more comfortable and proud of who they are, then that's a good thing, but it is missing on the article from The Sun, which is considered a deprecated reliable source here. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:04, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That is not true! If you read the Pink News source, it states at the start of the article that it is a list of lesbians, stating "So whether you’re a lesbian or not, take note of these incredible women who love women". Beth Mead is on that list. So it clearly presents Mead as lesbian, let alone LGBT. I suggest you read the article more closely. The Sun is not a reliable source, it is a tabloid, and it certainly should not override the Gay Star News as a more reliable source. Also, just because it doesn't mention the relationship doesn't mean it doesn't exist. AmSam13 (talk) 17:22, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This source: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/this-womens-world-cup-has-shown-what-lgbtq-inclusive-football-looks-like_uk_5d19eabfe4b082e5536c93ab?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAK9S0kOCTNwXkrWAr2o-MUa2VHswovGHSmxAibaWIyDBMm_SGfXq62fR4t8XpTokxHDVnCIEO2Elzc4RGFN1xQfUt5NOzWHnmUEFxRn9m68W6RM9gW21QBpoZJK3C1PBQe9MECHhu4LrL-S4dlXcefYAjxsVPiMrEGHTfrnslANL ALSO states Beth Mead is "openly" out. It is published by the Huff Post, and uses the Gay Star News article as a cited source. Need another source? Well there is also this one: https://www.outsports.com/2019/6/11/18660301/out-gay-lesbian-bi-2019-women-world-cup-soccer. It is published by Outsports, which is owned by Vox and which I believe to be a reputable source. Clearly, there is no lack of trustworthy sources which not only document Mead being LGBT but that she is completely OPEN with this identity. I do not understand how the lockdown greatly affects the fact that Mead is openly lesbian. My statement is nothing to do with the fact that shes living at home with someone at the moment. The articles by Outsports, Gar Star News and HuffPost are all published WELL BEFORE the lockdown started in the United Kingdom, indeed well before the Coronavirus was originally discovered! These sources are largely dated around the time of the 2019 Women's World Cup. If that wasn't enough, Mead is also listed on the "Visible Lesbian 100 list" which is subtitled "MEET 100 LESBIANS CHANGING THE GAME FOR WOMEN-LOVING WOMEN", this is shown here: https://www.lesbianvisibilityweek.com/visible-lesbian-100.html#/. Then there is this https://www.advocate.com/sports/2019/7/01/megan-rapinoe-says-teams-cant-win-without-gays. There is another source that another user has added to my statement on the biography. So in total, not including the PinkNews source or the Sun source, that is SEVEN sources that can be used to provide a reference for my statement. SEVEN! At least some of them are entirely trustworthy. AmSam13 (talk) 18:40, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I dare say the players are together (like many others) but we have to consider verifiability, not truth. I've been around here long enough in various guises to remember back when some fairly obvious/blatant soccer lesbians (Hope Powell, Abby Wambach) hadn't 'officially' come out so we had to keep dutifully deleting this kind of gossip added by well-meaning editors. To be honest it sometimes felt a bit like a waste of effort because it was pretty clear the stuff being added was true, and at WP:WOSO we were obviously very supportive and pro-lesbian in general. I remember at the time I went around seeking advice from the women's sports and LGBT wikiprojects and the feedback seemed to be that to include this stuff the bar has to be set high ie. we need exceptionally strong sources. In my opinion that would look more mainstream like the Littlejohn/McCabe one above, rather than the examples you've laid out here. It's potentially a thorny issue because of privacy concerns etc. which affect us as Wikipedians due to our rules, more than they would for a writer at one of these advocacy blogs. They all tend to copy off each other and are (quite naturally) working to a different agenda. I can see you've been making the same kind of edits and got some pushback at Lucy Bronze and Leah Williamson. My advice is to try and listen to what other more experienced editors are telling you, drop it for now, but 'keep an eye out' for some better quality sources to come along later. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 11:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the information, that is indeed helpful. The thing is, I think that I have found at least three sources that are exceptionally strong sources for this matter. The case for the three in question is as follows:
1) Outsports article: https://www.outsports.com/2019/6/11/18660301/out-gay-lesbian-bi-2019-women-world-cup-soccer. There is not anything on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources about Outsports specifically, however Outsports has been owned by Vox Media since 2013. As stated on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, "Vox is considered generally reliable". The Outsports site in general is also run as part of SB Nation, which is also owned by the generally reliable Vox Media. This makes me think that Outsports is probably considered a generally reliable source by Wikipedia, as a subsidiary of Vox Media? The Outsports article also not only documents Mead's sexual orientation identity but also that of her alleged partner, Daniëlle van de Donk, and it cites this source to support its claim: https://spelersvrouw.nl/beth-mead-vriendin-van-danielle-van-de-donk/. Unfortunately, I don't speak Dutch, so I was not able to fully look into whether this article/news site is a reputable source (perhaps some of the Dutch speakers among us could help me here!), but as a reputable news site with referenced claims I think the Outsports article would have a very good claim to being a exceptionally reliable source.
2) Gay Star News article: https://www.gaystarnews.com/article/meet-the-41-out-gay-and-bi-soccer-stars-in-the-womens-world-cup-2019/. I was not really able to find anything on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources or on Wikipedia in general about whether we consider the Gay Star News to be a generally reliable source (I am a fairly new editor, if you hadn't guessed, and I am not always clued-up on the location of the right guide pages). However, I had noticed it has been used in other biography of living person pages with no problems. For example, the very first reference on the Conchita Wurst page used a Gay Star Post article. The actual Women's football Gar Star News article itself is also notably cited by the HuffPost in this news article: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/this-womens-world-cup-has-shown-what-lgbtq-inclusive-football-looks-like_uk_5d19eabfe4b082e5536c93ab. Such usage of Gay Star News sources to me suggests that they are generally considered reliable?
3) Visible Lesbian 100 list: https://www.lesbianvisibilityweek.com/visible-lesbian-100.html#/. This list was published in The Guardian on the 20 April 2020, as documented here: https://divamag.co.uk/2020/03/03/vote-for-your-favourite-women-loving-women-in-the-visible-lesbian-100-list-2020/. As I'm sure users are aware, The Guardian is generally considered a reliable source. I'd probably say the Guardian is considered on a similar level of reliability to, the BBC, for example, which as you rightly point out is a good example of an exceptionally reliable source on matters such as this.
So I do think that there at least three exceptionally strong sources on this matter to be able to verify the claim.AmSam13 (talk) 22:44, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the detailed response, but no, I can't agree with this at all. 1) and 2) are salacious blog-style listicles. The Gay Star one is by admission based on "reader tips" and the first one ultimately derives from the players' Instagram accounts! Far from being exceptionally strong, they are nowhere near the standard of source required. For the third one, show me the Guardian article - there isn't one - I suspect one of the players listed in there had it 'spiked'. DIVA construct their lists from public votes, irrespective of whether the subjects wants to be in there. There is an article here which is a handy accessible explainer, for those of us who are not lesbians, about this issue and the 'levels' involved in 'coming out'. Seriously, if the players concerned don't want their status widely published, we have to back off. Quite apart from WP:BLP concerns around accuracy, legality, ethics, etc. we have to think of the players. You obviously follow the game closely and have great knowledge of the players involved, I am sure the last thing you want to do is cause them any unnecessary upset. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 22:54, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair though I don’t see what’s wrong with the gay star news. It’s not generated by readers tips like you say I don’t know where you’ve got that from. Also what’s wrong with Spielersvrouw as a source. And it is true that the gay star news is used on other living person articles Speaker of Truth and Wisdom (talk) 12:35, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We don't need to consider whether the source is reliable or whether SPAs should be adding juicy details to BLP articles. That's because articles do not list the current girl/boy-friends of subjects, not unless a reliable source documents the long-term significance of the friendship. There is a certain amount of tolerance for gossip at celebrity articles where sources often talk about little else other than the star's possible relationships, but who is dating-whom is not central to the biography of a footballer—not unless a reliable source explains otherwise. Johnuniq (talk) 06:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Balderdash. If you are going to add a person's article to the category 'LGBT association football players', you need to provide a reference. Its only right. You should know that. Therefore, the existence of a same-sex relationship in this case is entirely relevant. As it is for other pages where the 'LGBT association football players' category is added. Its not about providing celebrity 'gossip', just a reference for why that player's article is in a certain category. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AmSam13 (talk • contribs) 10:58, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Johnuniq, Bring back Daz Sampson, Tenryuu, just a note to say that AmSam13 is a sock, and Speaker of Truth blah blah is the same person. If you all edit similar articles, be on the lookout: one of their fascinations is with the gayness of female athletes and celebrities. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 15:32, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the action and update. Johnuniq (talk) 23:26, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GAN

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Following the peer review, I intend to put this through WP:GAN as I believe that it meets criteria, just like Keira Walsh. Any suggestions or objections? Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 13:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it looks close to being a good article though I see the lead has a few references which may stay there or moved to the correct places in the article. Apart from that, it should be included on the list of nominations. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 17:05, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for your feedback! I've made a few amendments and moved the references to the main text. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 19:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA review

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Summary

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GA toolbox
Reviewing
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.
    a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Hi Spiderone, I saw the nom at women's football task force so thought why not, will make a start on this soon. I'll be way less critical than Keira Walsh GA though, I'd like to think I've learnt a lot since then. I'll start with sources then move to content. CNC (talk) 14:57, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Content

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Early life checkY

A few issues with section that needs proper summarising, I'm hoping/expecting the career sections aren't the same.

  • Mead grew up in Hinderwell, a small village near Whitby, which she described as: "a fishing town in the middle of nowhere, with a population of about 2,000. [The] sort of place where the people are outnumbered by sheep. You know the type: loads of fields, two pubs, a hairdresser and about a mile away from the local shop.", I think this could be trimmed to the first sentence, the second doesn't appear to provide any encyclopedic value, or otherwise summarised and attributed etc generally.
  • He said to her and her mother, "It's fine that you're coming down to get involved but you will be the only girl here. They are quite rough so will she be ok?" Her mother replied, "She'll be fine.", again this can be summarised to something like "her mother was ok with her being the only girl in a rough game", no need for quotations, likewise with the following sentence that could be summarised into it.
  • I loved what I was doing on the pitch and had no other worry in the world — nothing else mattered except me kicking that football. Football is my first love; my one true love. It still breaks my heart sometimes, but that's part and parcel of the game. That's still my way of switching off now: just running around on a football pitch and loving what I'm doing. That's never changed, from the six-year-old kid to the 27-year-old who's running around now., unnecessary long quote. If it were due, it should be a quote box, but assuming it's not, it should be summarised into wikivoice.

CNC (talk) 19:45, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, I'll get to reviewing this over the weekend. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 21:25, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good to know. I'll carrying on reviewing content in the meantime, though probably won't get it all done by this weekend as will be quite busy, so will take me a bit longer to do a proper job. I'm assuming we're not in a rush here anyway. CNC (talk) 12:37, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the quotes were excessive. I've trimmed and reworded a bit so hopefully it reads better now. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 11:18, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for edits, looks much better now. Apologies for delay in reviewing further content, have been meaning to but keep forgetting. Will try prioritise going forward, or otherwise pass on review to another editor if unsuccessful. CNC (talk) 18:06, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, there's no rush. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 11:36, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Youth Career checkY
Sunderland
  • "Mead scored 23 goals in as many games, and ended the season with 29 in all competitions" - not doubting this, but it's missing a citation. fulltime.thefa.com should have the stats though.
@CommunityNotesContributor: I've been searching for ages and can't find anything. Soccerway and GSA don't go far enough back. I can't find any page for on fulltime.thefa.com - it seems to only cover amateur, local leagues. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 12:04, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging @Kingsif, as needs a link similar to this or this, but have no idea how to find it due to lack of search function and lack of personID for url. Kingsif found it somehow though I think. I searched for "Mead, Beth" "Sunderland" and it came up blank. The link otherwise covers non-league stats for players going back to 2003/04, so it should be there. CNC (talk) 12:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did manage to find Mead on that, eventually. Unfortunately, 2014 isn't covered as it's a WSL2 season and The FA doesn't seem to have any records for WSL2, probably because it's run by a separate organisation. I've had to use a Her Football Hub reference for 2014 as I really couldn't find anything else. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 13:34, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great work, but how did you find those links though? It remains illusive to me. WSL2 is supposed to be here alongside WSL, where it all was before transfering non-league stats to fulltime (as far as I understand). But instead it's disappeared which is nothing more than a bad joke. I should really write to FA about it as it's getting ridiculous at this point and affects WP:V for hundreds of players now. But I digress. To give you a heads up, career stats will need further work similar to hideous sitaution with Walsh see note. As there are league stats and cup stats but lack of clarity on WSL/League Cup and FA Cup, and seemingly no record of these statistics beyond manual counting per note on Walsh's page :/ CNC (talk) 13:59, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From your link, I was able to go back to the league page and then change the season to 2011-12. Luckily, as Mead was top scorer that season, I could then go to her page directly and access the 12-13 stats too. I'm dreading the work to be done for Mead's career stats. That'll have to wait for another day, though, as I've spent way too long on this article today already! Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 14:42, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even fulltime seems to have purged a significant amount of women's competition stats from/prior to 2013, I echo your sentiments about this being a ridiculous situation. If you guys still need help with Mead's stats, I'll try my best to help. Kingsif (talk) 22:59, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mead followed by 30 goals in 28 matches" - same again it seems
It's taken me a fair while but I reckon I've sorted this now. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 13:31, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mead was the top scorer for the team." - same again
It's taken me a fair while but I reckon I've sorted this now. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 13:31, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mead ended the 2015 season as the leading goalscorer in the WSL with 12 goals in 14 appearances. At the age of 20, she became the youngest WSL Golden Boot winner ever." The BBC 2022 ref doesn't to verify any of this content, it's the other refs at the end of the paragraph from arseblogs it seems. This cite could just do with removing unless it serves any purpose there.
  • "In 2022, Defoe wrote an afterword to Mead's autobiography, Lioness: My Journey to Glory." - presumably there's a citation that goes here.
  • "scoring 77 goals in 78 games" - this is duplicate info based on opening sentence. The quote is solid content, so maybe just first line can go.

References

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Sources look good, was expecting a lot more broken ones based on early content. The only marginally reliable source I came across was WP:DAILYMIRROR, but the claims aren't outrageous and is backed by other source as well so looks fine.

The only other questionable or broken sources were:

CNC (talk) 16:35, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@CommunityNotesContributor: many thanks for the source review! I've made some amendments on each of the points. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 19:32, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great work, will get to work reviewing content next. CNC (talk) 13:20, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other comments

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Hi @CommunityNotesContributor and Spiderone:, after being pinged above I did look at the club career stats table, specifically for the domestic cups, and so far these are my findings: Kingsif (talk) 23:37, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Soccerway supports the League Cup stats for 2014, 2015, 2016. It does not have stats before that, and does not have FA Cup stats.
  • As Soccerway doesn't have league stats before 2015, it is not possible to use WP:CALC attribution for the earlier stats (i.e. with no sources relating to the seasons, we can't even do [the FA's total overall appearances] - [Soccerway's league appearances]), and separate sources are needed. If Sunderland AFC Ladies has good archives, looking through them could help, otherwise individual match reports and counting is the way to go.
  • Insofar as checking through the sources available at Wikipedia articles, in 2011–12, Sunderland did not compete in the League Cup. Same the next season... I get the sense that these stats relate to the then-Women's Premier League Cup instead, since Sunderland was in the National League. This competition should be noted in the table's footnote, and as long as you have an older archive link for the fulltime player stats page (before they condensed it to total appearances and goals, rather than separating by competition) or the link for the team's overall season stats (which still seem to separate them), one ref might do it all.
  • Soccerway's lack of FA Cup stats is total, i.e. we will also need separate sources for her Arsenal appearances and goals.
  • Arsenal also only has inconsistent player stats for the FA Cup... and for 2017 she apparently played 2 games (our table says 0)
  • The FA (fulltime) does have some FA Cup stats for National League teams (I just discovered this! No option to just look at the FA Cup, but once you're in the league results, they're present...) 2011–12 and you can change season by drop-down. That link is showing a Premier League Cup game.
  • This link is showing all of Sunderland's detailed results for the 2011–12 season, and can be used to source that. Mead's stats are WPL Cup: 4 app. 5 goals – League: 19 app. 18 goals.
  • FA Cup archives tool - It has all the fixtures and outcomes, but not player/goal stats, so it's not actually useful.
  • 2012–13 season includes FA Cup (4 appearances, 5 goals) and so could be used to source that row.
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