Talk:C&O desk

C&O desk has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: June 19, 2023. (Reviewed version).

A fact from C&O desk appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 14 February 2012 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that in the Oval office, George H. W. Bush used the C&O desk instead of the Resolute desk during his presidential term? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2012/February. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/C&O desk.

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In 1920 the C&O main offices were in Cleveland, weren't they? Owned by the Van Sweringen brothers and partners, before their construction of Terminal Tower. Were the desks made in Cincinnati? Surely the commission appears in C&O business archives. Who were the four partners who received a desk in 1920? --Wetman (talk) 03:05, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I spent days trying to find out those specific things but I was not able to get anything more specific than what is in the article currently. I contacted the C&O Historical Society multiple time but they never responded to any of my requests. there is an article in one of their publications explicitly about the desk [1] but I can not get the article online and can not get it at my local library or though inter-library loan. If anyone else has this article or knows how to get it please inform me or add to the wiki page yourself!--Found5dollar (talk) 04:20, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article says nothing about this desk after 1993. Is its current location known, or has it been lost? - Brian Kendig (talk) 20:34, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

List of Oval Office desks says current location is unknown. It would be good if someone could track it down and add this to the article. GA-RT-22 (talk) 22:15, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• GA-RT-22, I've been working for years trying to find it. I've reached out to presidential libraries, the White House historic association, even the Smithsonian and have pull up no information on its whereabouts. Please feel free to try to hunt it down yourself and and any information you can find.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's pretty interesting. I doubt I would have any better luck. Did you get a response from the Bush Museum? Sounds like he was the last one to use it. And did you try Eli Wilner? They probably had access to the original to make the replica. GA-RT-22 (talk) 23:46, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the introduction, it says "Of all the Oval Office desks this one was used there only by George H. W. Bush." However, in the History section, we read: "Presidents Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, and Ronald Reagan all used the desk there", and there is a picture of Jimmy Carter sitting at the desk. At first, this looks like a contradiction. Then I realized the "there" in the second reference refers to the Oval Office Study, adjacent to the Oval Office. This became clear by studying the chart. Can anyone suggest an edit that makes this clearer? Lemccbr (talk 12:56, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

From what I can tell, the photo of Jimmy Carer using the desk "in his study" doesn't come close to matching the present "Oval Office Study" that is a small room with two windows (and I don't think a fireplace) and would not have room for this desk. Was there a renovation and was the study moved at some point after Carter? Or is the photo from a different study. TheHYPO (talk) 20:14, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch! I believe what we're seeing in the photo is what would now be called the President’s Dining Room. White House Museum says, "Just off the Oval Office, through a small corridor past the president's private study is the president's West Wing study and dining room, sometimes called the 'Oval Office Dining Room' (some presidents use a smaller office next door as their private study)." Here's a photo of Reagan and Bush eating lunch in the Oval Office Study. The room does have a fireplace, and it looks like the same one as in the Carter photo. GA-RT-22 (talk) 04:23, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article states both that the desk was given by CSX Corporation, which was created by merger in 1990, and that it was given before the merger. The first President who is mentioned as having used the desk was Gerald Ford, who became President in August 1974. If the desk was given during his term, the donor would have been Chessie System, created in 1973 as a holding company for the Chesapeake & Ohio, Baltimore & Ohio, and Western Maryland railroads. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ironsides01 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch! I have removed mentions of CSX. Unfortunately we do have a reliable source that says the desk was donated by CSX, even though this seems to be physically impossible.[2] Maybe Found5dollar can shed some light on this? GA-RT-22 (talk) 19:37, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ironsides01 and GA-RT-22: thank you for reaching out about this. While there are some discrepancies on this page, I don't think it is quite as bad as you think. The contemporaneous source [3] says the was given by CSX Corporation so I'm inclined to trust it. Per our own articles CSX was formed in 1980, not 1990, so we only have a discrepancy of about 5 years between our 2 main references, the LA Timess one linked above and the Brookings institute one here [4]. In all likelyhood the Brookings Institute one is wrong and the LA Times one is right. I'd put money on the desk being donated at the time of the merger in 1980 leaving Gerald Ford as never actually having used it. The problem is we have to follow the references and right now they conflict. This desk is the hardest one to track info down on including where it is now and when it was donated. When I finish cleaning up Resolute desk I was planning on moving over to this one next. We'll see if I can dig anything else up to clarify this.--Found5dollar (talk) 21:55, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to either leave the wording as-is or revert to the CSX version, your call. I'm not sure I believe the C&O desk was "used by Ford, Carter, and Reagan in the West Wing Study" as Brookings says. If you look at the photos at President’s Private Study there is a small table being used as a desk, and not enough room for the C&O desk. But this is WP:OR and as you say we need to report what the sources say. GA-RT-22 (talk) 22:34, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted back to the previous as thats what the sources say, but I also added footnote saying that the sources are in conflict with each other. I'll keep digging. thanks for all your help!--Found5dollar (talk) 01:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ironsides01 and GA-RT-22: I finally found a source! The desk was donated to the White House during the Reagan administration. The Brookings article is wrong! It is impossible for Ford or Carter to have used it. I'll work on updating everything soon. [5] --Found5dollar (talk) 21:10, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, this doesn't make sense either. Carter is sitting at the desk in a few pictures. Maybe they are not the same desk? Found5dollar (talk) 22:44, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it really matters all that much, but the rules for ellipses in quotations are at MOS:ELLIPSIS. They suggest we should use them in this case. I have added the prescribed non-breaking space, and moved the period outside the quote per MOS:LQ. GA-RT-22 (talk) 21:37, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just found an image of HW Bush using the desk in his VP office. [6] I don't have time right now to track down the copyright but I'm leaving this here so I don't forget it and can work on it later. --Found5dollar (talk) 19:48, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've been finding some really tantalizing breadcrumbs about the history of this desk which cold be super interesting if true. The only issue is that there is next to no information and alot of what im discovering are pictures, partial snippets of articles and incomplete stuff. Alot of this just doesn't line up. here are the breadcrumbs I have in roughly chronological order:

• "in each office was a double "partners desk"... six of these desks had been made for the Vans and their senior associates -- years later one of them donated by Hays T. Watkins, CSX chairman, would be used by president George Bush in the Oval Office". "The Vans" refers to the Van Sweringen brothers who had their office in Cleveland's Terminal Tower.[7]
  • "The Vans built a lavish set of offices for themselves on the 36th floor, decorated in their preferred, stodgy English style. From suites paneled with oak cut from Sherwood Forest, the brothers could look out on their empire." with a ground plan of the offices on the 36th floor showing the four offices that would have the four matching desks [8]

• Historical images:[9](search under location for Cleveland, OH)
  • 1928 images of the Van Sweringen brothers at one of the desks.
  • NOV 1947 images of the C&O offices on the 36th floor showing the desks

• 1954 (maybe) - C&O takes over the former Van Sweringen office. "Young in 1943 asked Eaton to join the Chessie board and in 1954 sold Eaton his stock in the C&O so he could pursue the New York Central Railroad. Eaton became chairman and moved into the office on the 36th floor of the Terminal Tower that once belonged to the Van Sweringen brothers."[10]

• 1969-1974 - Loans to the White House 1969-1974."Early 20th century reproduction of an English partner's desk. Lent by the Diplomatic Reception Rooms, Department of State from Mr. Hay Watkins, the Chessie System."[11]

• 1974-1990 at least - desk in West Wing Study. The desk, all furniture, and the interiors were designed by Louis Rorimer "A large partner's desk, one of a set of three, originally in the Van Sweringen offices in Terminal Tower, is currently in the West Wing Study of the White House, where it has been since 1974.[12](p. 166)

• 1978 - Jimmy Carter sitting at the desk in the Oval Office Study image [13](maybe this isn't actually the desk???? but it sure looks like it....)

• 1986 - C&O vacates the offices in the Terminal Tower.[14]

• During Reagan administration (1981-1989) - HW Bush using the desk in his VP office image [15]

• During Reagan administration (1981-1989) - "DESK, walnut. C 1920, probably American" donated to the White House. "one of four custom-made for the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad" "gift of the CSX corporation"[16]
  • not under 1981-1982 accquisitions [17]

I'm starting to get somewhere with all of this but it is still just being tenuously held together. I'm going to keep on digging.--Found5dollar (talk) 00:30, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder what happened to the other three (or five) desks? GA-RT-22 (talk) 03:05, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's a very good question which an answer to is kind of needed for this article. I just found another breadcrumb, but this one claims there were only 3 desks! oof! I added it above.Found5dollar (talk) 23:37, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is certainly turning out to be the mystery desk. We don't know exactly where it came from (C&O or CSX), when it came to the White House, what happened to its siblings, or where it is now. Also I just realized this is the only Oval Office desk for which we do not have dimensions.

Look at this INCREDABLE image of the C&O during the transition from Bus to Clinton, the Resolute is to the left broken down into its component parts![18] This is shocking and shows how the resolute is constructed and documents the last moment the C&O was in the office. I'm blown away!--Found5dollar (talk) 02:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Holy crap they took it apart?? Unfortunately David Hume Kennerly, while he had been an official White House photographer earlier, was apparently not working for the government, which means there probably is no free version of this photo we can use. By the way, apropos an earlier discussion, this suggests it would have been easy to move the plaque from one side of the Resolute to the other. GA-RT-22 (talk) 04:10, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Finally found the document we've been looking for! A memo from Clem Conger, the then White House Curator and previous director of the Office of Fine Arts, in 1975 to Ford noting the new "Historic Items in the President's Study." it says:

"Among the items of historic interest which have been recently placed in your study in the West Wing are the following:... Pedestal Desk-This desk is one of four made to order by the Van Swearingen brothers, former owners of the C&0 Railway about 1920 for the headquarters of the C&0 Terminal Skyscraper in Cleveland, Ohio. It was made by superior craftsmen who modeled it after an English 18th century partner's desk. It is on loan from Mr. Hay Watkins, Chairman of the Board of the Chessie System."

So basically it looks like the desk was loaned to be on display in the Diplomatic Reception Rooms, U.S. Department of State during their renovations beginning in 1961, some time between 1969-1974 was loaned to the white house, was moved to the Oval Office Study in 1975, was donated to the White House sometime during the Reagan administration (1981-1989), then was used as Bush's Oval Office desk.

Phew. that took a while to figure out.

still alot more to discover but I feel comfortable now finally updating the page since we hanve a stronger handle on where the desk actually came from. --Found5dollar (talk) 22:23, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Per the accession number I think we can infer that the desk was acquired by the white house in 1987.[19] do we think I need a source for how these numbers work? --Found5dollar (talk) 15:48, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Technically I guess yes, we should, but this isn't some life-or-death medical article. If you've got a source for how the numbers work I would cite it, otherwise I'd be happy to let it slide. GA-RT-22 (talk) 17:03, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

just found this[20] great image of the desk after it had been moved out of the White House. It is referenced as being from Life in 1993 but I've searched through all of the issues around the time of the inauguration and cant find it anywhere...--Found5dollar (talk) 14:26, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Life, not Time GA-RT-22 (talk) 22:22, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

woof. yes. sorry. just a mistake in typing. I have fixed the comment above.--Found5dollar (talk) 14:28, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A "Walnut and Burl Table Desk" designed by Rorimer-Brooks' chief designer William B. Green, was on display at the Cleveland Museum of Art's May Show in 1923. This desk won first prize in the furniture category. Unfortuantly on the entry card it clearly states that no images were allowed to be taken of the desk. I think it is highly likely this desk is one of the four that ended up in the terminal tower. but with out an image or more info I can't be certain. Is it worth including this info in the article clearly stating that it is a possibility these were the same desks but we just don't know?[21][22]--Found5dollar (talk) 21:43, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's some impressive sleuthing. I'm inclined to say put it in. You think the desks were ordered in 1920, completed shortly after, but just stored at Rorimer until the tower was completed in 1930? I see the owner is listed on the card as Rorimer, not Van Sweringen.

There seems to be some uncertainty as to when the tower was built. Terminal Tower gives no start date, says the tower was finished in 1927. Van Sweringen brothers says the tower plan was announced in 1923, construction began in 1926, and it was completed in 1930. 1920 seems pretty early to start ordering the furniture. But maybe it takes several years to get four fancy desks built. GA-RT-22 (talk) 22:55, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, I don't do much of this. Do questions about a GA review go in the GA Review section interleaved with the comments; in a separate sub-section at the bottom; or in a whole separate section?

Is there a guideline that calls for templated citations? I prefer them myself, but I thought their use was a matter of personal taste.

The long-ish quotes don't seem excessive to me. They are long enough to call for block quotes, and I can convert them if needed. Is this a question of style or of copyright? The MOS has a section on how to format block quotes, so obviously long-ish quotes aren't entirely prohibited. I think we only have two? The Conger quote tells an interesting story and I'd like to keep it. The Miller quote is less compelling, I can paraphrase it if needed. GA-RT-22 (talk) 19:26, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@GA-RT-22 They should go on the page Talk:C&O desk/GA1, which is transcluded here. Feel free to add a level 3 header there. Encouragements are basically things I'd like to see but that not doing won't affect the review. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 20:36, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just removed this section, but maybe, someday we will have the sources to put it back in:

A "Walnut and Burl Table Desk" designed by Rorimer-Brooks's chief designer William B. Green, was on display at the Cleveland Museum of Art's May Show in 1923. This desk won first prize in the furniture category.^[1] Unfortunately on the entry card it clearly states that no reproduction images were allowed to be taken of the desk^[2] so while the description of the desk on display matches the four desks created for the Van Sweringen's executive offices, it may be impossible to definitively state this award winning desk is the same designs as the C&O desk. Found5dollar (talk) 22:06, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The C&O desk is not a table desk, it's a pedestal desk. I guess it's possible the terminology has changed in the intervening hundred years, but today a table desk is one with no drawers or cabinets. GA-RT-22 (talk) 17:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]