Talk:Carols by Candlelight
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 | On 1 January 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Carols by Candlelight (Melbourne). The result of the discussion was Propose split. |
world?
editWhere else is it held around the world? --Astrokey44 12:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- I have reinstated that it has spread around the world. Prester John claimed in his edit comment that the linked article didn't say so, but it does, just not in those words. But what does "around the world" mean? It surely doesn't mean "to every country". So how many countries and where is needed for that statement to be correct? The linked article mentions "throughout Africa and New Zealand and in several of the South Pacific Islands", and "in the courtyard outside the Church Of The Holy Nativity in Bethlehem". To me, that is enough to qualify for the statement, although if someone wants to modify the wording rather than delete it, I'm certainly open to other possibilities. Philip J. Rayment 00:03, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
- Well put. I think it justifies at least a mention. Nick carson (talk) 13:01, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Article title ambiguous
editTHis article starts off talking about a tradition of singing carols etc, usually in a park, and then the remainder of the article is talking about Melbourne Carols. Thus I suggest either: Edit this page to make it about EITHER Melborne Carols OR Carols by Candlelight in general, OR: Re-name this article Melbourne Carols By Candlelight. Sem boy (talk) 22:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Carols by Candlelight is Melbourne's Carols by Candlelight. It has since spread around Australia and to certain corners of the world. I have modified the lead somewhat to reflect the encompassing nature of the article better. Nick carson (talk) 12:59, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Earlier start
editThat the carols started in the 1800s in Moonta is questionable. I note that it was primarily added by an anonymous IP who made only that one edit. The only reference I could find with a bit of quick Googling is here, which says:
Some claim the practice originated here in the mid 19th Century among the Cornish and staunchly Methodist copper miners of Moonta in South Australia.
Tallow candles or ”fat jacks” were stuck to the front of their hats with a daub of wet clay. The shift captains turned a blind eye as the men took time out of their Christmas eve shifts to gather on the mine platforms and sing by the light of the fat jacks and again the next day with the women in church.
Modern carols by candlelight began in 1938 as radio broadcasts, and by 1970 they were on television.
This does give some support to the claim, but doesn't say that the Moonta practice "spread through Victoria and Melbourne", nor that Norman Banks merely popularised it. Rather, it seems that the Cornish miners in Moonta did something that was vaguely similar to the modern Carols by Candlelight, but their practice has no real connection to want Banks started. Philip J. Rayment (talk) 13:13, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
3KZ or 3LO?
edit'The tradition spread through Victoria and Melbourne until it was popularised in 1938 by Norman Banks, a radio announcer then with Melbourne radio station 3KZ. Whilst walking home from his night-time radio shift on Christmas Eve in 1937' The Australian Broadcasting Corporation claim that it was 3LO's Dot Dawson (wife of Smoky Dawson) who proposed Carols by Candlelight in Melbourne while she was working at the ABC. Norman Banks had moved to 3LO by this time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bebofpenge (talk • contribs) 06:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
"Criticism" Information"
editThe information in this section is terribly bias and frankly unsubstantiated. "...families wishing to attend must pay up to $400" Family tickets similar to Carols in the Domain cost $100, not $400. "[Carols in the Domain] is seen as more greatly reflecting the spirit of Christmas" All the proceeds made at Carols by Candlelight go to Vision Australia, how is that not reflecting the spirit of christmas? "Carols by Candlelight's cast consistently pales in comparison to that of Carols in the Domain... and organisers fail to attract significant international headliners" Pales? Thats pathetic. "Given that families are required to pay in order to attend, this has damaged the reputation of the event" Well clearly it hasn't seeing as though tickets always sell out, and it is the most watched Carols event in Australia. Anyone else think that this information should be removed? -WikiXiki —Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiXiki (talk • contribs) 09:45, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
External links modified
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- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041129092733/http://ink.news.com.au:80/classmate/takchall/musicxmas/tkcharc_musicxmas_candlelight.html to http://ink.news.com.au/classmate/takchall/musicxmas/tkcharc_musicxmas_candlelight.html
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Size of events?
editThe lead paragraph talks about the "largest event" in Australia, but has no actual numbers or definition. Later, for Geelong, there's an assertion about the "third largest". What figures are used for this? In terms of live audience, Melbourne gets about 10,000 according to newspaper reports - and I think the Myer Music Bowl has limits. Does it include TV figures? In that case it's not a useful comparison with live-only events, which seem to be able to attract more than 10,000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Music3149 (talk • contribs) 06:44, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
See also - Christmas music from Australia
edit| Title | Composer / Lyricist | Year published | Notes |
|---|---|---|---|
| Hymn for Christmas Day | John Howson | 1840s | Composed for Saint James Church [1] |
| Christmas Present Polka | John Howson | 1852 | [2] |
| All my heart this night rejoices | Charles Edward Horsley | 1862 | [3] |
| Hymn for Christmas-Day | James Johnson | 1862 | |
| Our Australian Christmas Song | Ernesto Spagnoletti | 1863 | [4] |
| Christmas In Australia | George Tolhurst | 1864 | Lyrics celebrate southern hemisphere summer christmas |
| Victorian Christmas Waltz | Cesare Cutolo | 1866 | Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).
|
| Song Of The Angels | Charles Sandys Packer | 1883 | |
| Oh, lovely voices of the sky | Alfred Pumpton | 1890 | |
| Star of The East | Augustus Juncker | 1890 | [5] |
| While all things were in quiet silence | Henry John King | 1899 | |
| In The Cathedral | George Savin De Chaneet | 1900 | Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).
|
| My Little Christmas Belle | Joe Slater and Ward McAllister | 1910 | [6] |
| Australian Christmas Carol | Joseph Summers | 1908 | Captures the sound of St Georges Perth Cathedral Bells |
| Christmas Anthem | Paolo Giorza | 1870 | |
| Yuletide Gavotte | John Albert Delaney | 1900 | |
| Nine Carols | Arthur Rivers | 1904 | [7] |
| Star Of The East 1910 | August Juncker | 1910 | |
| The Christmas story in carols | Rivers, Arthur Richard 1857-1940 | 1912 | [8] |
| Bush Christmas Carol | Jessie Penfold | 1912 | Western Australian |
| A Christmas Hymn | Joseph Furphy (Tom Collins) & Arthur Chanter | 1914 | [9] |
| The Night Of Fear Is Over | Fritz Hart | 1929 | |
| Hurrah For Father Christmas | Christian Hellerman | 1952 |
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tradimus (talk • contribs) 13:28, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
References
- ^ https://soundcloud.com/sydlivmus/first-hymn-for-christmas-day
- ^ Howson, John, 1819?-1871 (1852), The Christmas present polka / composed by J. Howson, J. Howson
{{citation}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) - ^ Horsley, Charles Edward, 1822-1876, All my heart this night rejoices [music] : Christmas hymn / composed by Charles Edward Horsley, C.E. Horsley
{{citation}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) - ^ Spagnoletti, Ernesto (1863), Our Australian Christmas song, Alonzo Grocott, retrieved 17 September 2019
- ^ Juncker, Aug. W. (August W.); Rogers, W. R. Russell (1890), Star of the East, A.W. Juncker?, retrieved 17 September 2019
- ^ http://nla.gov.au/nla.mus-vn3426213
- ^ Rivers, A. R. (Arthur Richard), 1857-1940 (1904), Nine Christmas carols / by Arthur R. Rivers, s.n.], retrieved 20 September 2019
{{citation}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) - ^ Rivers, A. R. (Arthur Richard) (1912), The Christmas story in carols, H. J. Diddams & Co, retrieved 17 September 2019
- ^ http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/151994
Requested move 1 January 2023
edit- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Propose split. The nominator has requested that this is closed, and a split is proposed instead. As there appears to be support for this idea, I am closing the requested move early. (closed by non-admin page mover) echidnaLives - talk - edits 05:24, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Carols by Candlelight → Carols by Candlelight (Melbourne) – There are numerous "Carols by Candlelight" events, and some articles link to these general events, e.g. Christmas music and Template:Christmas. I think we need an article for these general events, with the starting point being the content in Carols_by_Candlelight#Other_carols_events. And if we do create such an article, think it is self-evident that it would be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Carols by Candlelight, and therefore this article needs to be renamed. Adpete (talk) 05:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- OK, looking more closely, perhaps a request for a split (Wikipedia:Proposed article splits) is more appropriate? But I still think the basic idea is right, i.e. moving the Melbourne event to Carols by Candlelight (Melbourne). Adpete (talk) 06:02, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. English Wikipedia's sole such main title header, thus obviating the need for parenthetical qualifier. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 06:49, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- Support Carols by Candlelight (Australia) there is life outside Wikipedia. The question is, is this primary topic for the real world? And yes the Australian events certainly are in Australia. But outside Australia this term is highly generic. As to the claim that Melbourne 1937 was the first carols by candlelight. Perhaps if it is capitalised as a trademark. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:31, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- Request by nominator: would it be possible to close this, so that I can relist it as a split instead, using Wikipedia:Proposed article splits? The article is already two articles in one (one about general events, one about the specific Melbourne event), so I think a split is more appropriate. Adpete (talk) 03:48, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- I would agree to that. Right now the article is trying to be two things at once. HiLo48 (talk) 03:58, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- Splitting sounds like a good idea, but should it be split into:
- ...Melbourne and ...other, or
- ...Vision Australia and ...other, or
- ...Australia and ...other
- something else?
- Is there some reason why the Melbourne one is deserving of its own article (with Melbourne in the name)? Are the Perth, Adelaide, Canberra, Darwin, and (non-Melbourne) Victorian "Carols by Candlelight" substantially different things? Mitch Ames (talk) 04:11, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- Melbourne is where it all began. HiLo48 (talk) 04:18, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- The main reason is that the Melbourne one gets more coverage - both it and the Sydney one are broadcast on prime time TV - and there are plenty of sources on it. In other words, it passes WP:GNG. The Sydney one has its own article at Carols in the Domain, so to me, that means the Melbourne one gets its own article too, as the two events are comparable in terms of who's on and media coverage. If someone wants to make articles on the Adelaide / Brisbane / Perth events they're welcome to, but I think sources will be harder to come by. So I say: one article for the tradition (which can include a list of major ones, as the section in this article does), and one for the Melbourne event. Adpete (talk) 04:24, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Proposed split
editThis article covers two distinct topics: (section 1) the annual Melbourne event called "Carols by Candlelight"; and (section 2) the general tradition and practice of "Carols by Candlelight" events (including the list of the larger ones around the world). I think a split is appropriate for a few reasons: they are distinct topics, and incoming links refer to specifically one or the other. The Sydney event, which is roughly comparable in terms of TV coverage and celebrities appearing, has its own page at Carols in the Domain; so that suggests that the Melbourne event is also significant enough to have its own article. And two other editors expressed in-principle support in the previous section.
The harder problem is what to call the two articles. I think it is best to have Carols by Candlelight for the tradition, and Carols by Candlelight (Melbourne) for the Melbourne concert; in other words I think that the tradition is the primary topic. My reasons:
- The main criteria at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC are common usage and long-term significance, and I think the tradition comes ahead of the Melbourne concert on both counts. I think when most people outside Victoria think of "Carols by Candlelight", they think of the general event, not the one on TV; that is certainly the case for me (I am in Adelaide). Note that while the tradition begin in Melbourne, WP:DETERMINEPRIMARY says "Being the original source of the name is also not determinative."
- It is true the majority of incoming links to the article refer to the Melbourne event, but I think that is more because those links are easier to add; i.e. it is easier to see the 2022 Melbourne singers' list and update their pages, than to bring together information on all the smaller "Carols by Candlelight" events. The incoming links are here: [1], and roughly come to 100 after talk pages are omitted. By my count about 1/4 of them (27 in total) refer to the tradition, or to a concert in a city other than Melbourne: Christmas music, Christmas carol, Observance of Christmas by country#South_Africa, Carol (music), Christmas in Australia (refers to both), Corinda, Queensland, City of Clarence, North Ryde, New South Wales, Jane Doyle, Emerald, Victoria, Rosanna Mangiarelli, Rick Price, Mark Soderstrom, Roma Street Parkland, Mount Waverley, Victoria, Rosny Park, Ruffey Lake Park, Denis Walter (refers to both), Old Gippstown, Peter Ford (entertainment reporter), Siobhan Owen, Geoff Raymond, James Wright Group, Christian music in Australia (refers to both), Rockhampton Music Bowl, Dorothy Shaw Bell Choir, Template:Christmas
Anyway, I'm calling for feedback on (a) whether to do the split, and (b) how to do the split (i.e. is some other naming of articles better). I will list this at Wikipedia:Proposed article splits. Adpete (talk) 04:08, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- I've added a "proposed split" tag to the article now. Adpete (talk) 07:52, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- If most people outside Victoria think of "Carols by Candlelight" when they think of the general event, not the one on TV, that seems like a good enough reason to support your proposal. But is it a problem covering both topics in the same article? Javan009 (talk) 23:37, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose – there doesn't seem to be any issue with having both topics in the same article, information about the tradition currently makes up a small proportion of current article, with most information about events outside of Melbourne being in their own articles already if notable. Happily888 (talk) 15:00, 3 June 2023 (UTC)