Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexandrovna

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. This is a page with one surname and several partonyms. The arguments to delete appear stronger. Tone 17:30, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alexandrovna (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This is not a given name but a patronymic. There is no reason to have a list of women with a Slavic name whose father was someone named Alexander; the list elements are all basically WP:Partial title matches that nobody (except for some close acquaintances, informally) would just call "Alexandrovna". 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 (𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 09:00, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 (𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 09:00, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom Spiderone 14:53, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 15:44, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak keep It seems to me to be a mildly helpful disambiguation page. I don't see the benefit in deleting it.★Trekker (talk) 08:13, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • To me it seems a mildly unhelpful waste of time if we start creating such pages for all possible patronymics. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 (𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 08:48, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't really see what makes patronymics different from any other type of name in this regard.★Trekker (talk) 10:53, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete This is not what disambiguation pages are meant to be (per WP:DABPAGE: A disambiguation page is a non-article page that lists and links to encyclopedia articles covering topics that could have had the same title. The purpose of disambiguation pages is allowing navigation to the article on the topic being sought. The information on a disambiguation page should be focused on getting the reader to their desired article.). To my eye, this article is similar to if The Elder (disambiguation) listed everyone called "[Name] the Elder" (Cato the Elder, Seneca the Elder, Julia the Elder, Edward the Elder, Pliny the Elder, Lucas Cranach the Elder, Osorkon the Elder, Helmuth von Moltke the Elder and so on) or if The Third (disambiguation) listed everyone called "[Name] III" (Pedro III of Kongo, William III of England, Robert III of Scotland, Charles III of Spain, Gustav III, Nicholas III of Saint Omer, Albert III, Duke of Austria, Anna III, Abbess of Quedlinburg, Christian III of Denmark, Joan III, Countess of Burgundy, Margaret III, Countess of Flanders, and so on). It would be a similarly bad idea to have an article called Nikolaevich and list everyone from Alexei Nikolaevich, Tsarevich of Russia to Leo Tolstoy and Boris Yeltsin. The problem, as the nominator rightly points out, is that these people would never be referred to as simply "Alexandrovna", "the Elder", "the Third", or "Nikolaevich", respectively. Hence, it doesn't fulfil the purpose of a disambiguation page. An WP:Alternative to deletion could be to redirect this to Eastern Slavic naming customs, as is currently done for Alexandrovich. TompaDompa (talk) 22:40, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 09:06, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree that we don't need dab pages for Russian patronymics, but I'm seeing some borderline entries here. Larisa Alexandrovna for example is an American, and whatever the name "Alexandrovna" may have originally been, for her it appears to function as a surname and in the article she's referred to using this name alone. The dab page also lists several royalties, like Princess Irina Alexandrovna of Russia, and even though we've got clear patronymics there, it's possible that some readers of the encyclopedia may be under the impression that this is a surname and search for the person using just that. We could either keep some sort of trimmed-down dab page, or delete altogether and let readers use the search engine. Redirecting anywhere will prevent readers from getting the pages they're looking for. – Uanfala (talk) 10:33, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as a name page, not a dab page, so different rules apply. The only alternative would be to redirect to Larisa Alexandrovna, because it is her surname. It is probably more helpful to more readers to have this name page, to help the odd reader who can only remember a mangled version of someone's name - and as "Alexandrovna" is included in most of these article titles we must assume that it forms part of the most common version of their names (a couple are redirects from full name to an article title without this name). There are plenty of pages for all holders of a given name, and I'm sure some of them include the name as middle name as well as first name. There is no reason to delete this one. I've tidied it up. PamD 10:56, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep – This is not a disambiguation page, so many of the comments above do not apply. If this page were to be deleted, then should we delete all the Icelandic patronymic name pages too (see [1])? I think not. Hebrides (talk) 12:35, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's not a particularly apt comparison. Icelandic names use patronymic surnames (i.e. the patronymic and the surname is the same name). Eastern Slavic naming customs use separate patronymics and surnames. TompaDompa (talk) 12:46, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks, TompaDompa, for clarifying. However, does the position of the patronymic (as the final word in the person's full name or as an earlier word) really determine whether or not there is validity and usefulness in creating a name page? — Hebrides (talk) 18:28, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Not the position, per se, but the fact that it is neither a given name nor a surname does. The thing I wrote above about "[Name] the Elder" and "[Name] III" applies (and the same thing could be said about "[Name] Jr." and so on). TompaDompa (talk) 19:08, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. This is a misleading disambig. page. This is just a patronymic, nothing else really. My very best wishes (talk) 01:31, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment – This is not a disambiguation page. All comments in this discussion that apply dab page criteria should be disregarded. There are different criteria for Wikipedia:Name pages, which themselves are a special case of the more general category of Wikipedia:Set index articles (SIA). The original justification for this AfD refers to the article as a "Partial title match" – this reasoning is invalid since the Partial Title match criterion applies only to disambiguation pages. — Hebrides (talk) 18:28, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • But this article only makes sense for its navigational function (whether you'd call the page a dab or a surname index). As a "name page" it doesn't have encyclopedic value: given names may be notable, surnames may be notable, patronymic surnames may also be notable, but patronymic middle names in Russian are not. – Uanfala (talk) 18:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) WP:Name pages deal with given names and surnames. Non-surname patronymics (such as this one) are neither. TompaDompa (talk) 19:09, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.