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Yunan Müslümanları

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In Turkish, there is no specific naming for Muslims of Greek descent. The words "Yunan", "Yunanlı" are related only to the country of Greece. Thus, it is odd to use the word "Yunan Müslümanları" for people who do not reside in Greece. The word "Yunan Müslümanları" or (more accurately) "Yunanistan Müslümanları" can be used merely for the Muslim community in Greece. Greeks of Anatolia, Istanbul, Cyprus, etc. are named "Rum" in Turkish, not "Yunanlı" as they do not live in Greece. The term "Yunan Müslümanları" seems to be an indelicate translation of the word "Greek Muslims" but it is definitely irrelevant. --Behemoth 05:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's true, but can there be a possibilty of a name like 'Rum Müslümanları'? the word 'Rum' is used for the christain orthodox greeks, right? really, isn't there any name to refer to people of greek decent, speaking greek, but who are religiously muslims in turkey? --Hectorian 15:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Rum Müslümanları" is a pure oxymoron. In fact, if you want to fashion a term in Turkish to indicate people who are of Muslim faith and ethnically Greek (and from Greece) it shall be "Yunanlı Müslümanlar", not "Yunan Müslümanları" and such term does not exist in Turkish. There is definitely no Turkish word to indicate a Greek Muslim in the given context. --Behemoth 17:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
To Hectorian: if I understand Behemoth correctly, "Rum Müslümanları" translates into Greek as "Ελληνορθόδοξοι Χριστιανοί Μουσουλμάνοι" ;-) --Tēlex 17:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, it's quite funny. --Behemoth 17:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
They are named after localities, such as Giritli, Yanyalı, Oflu, Tonyalı, etc. and these terms may cover (in a broader sense) anyone from these places, whether they are Greek-speaking or not. --Behemoth 17:40, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There's no real term for them in Greek for them (except maybe the popular folk myth of the κρυπτοχριστιανοί του Πόντου - the crypto-Christians of Pontus). It's interesting that Giritli are called Turkish Cretans in Greek (Τουρκοκρητικοί) and the Yanyalı are called Turks from Ioannina (Τουρκογιαννιώτες) - it's a common perception that Islam and "Greekness" or any other ethnicity are incompatible. Even the Muslim Albanians are called Turkish Albanians (Τουρκαλβανοί). --Tēlex 17:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, any Greek-Orthodox Christian is "Rum" and any Muslim is "Τούρκος". --Behemoth 17:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rum means Roman. It is used to describe both for the Roman territories and Roman people.

When you call a contemporary person "Rum" you are probably referring to a Greek speaking Orthodox Christian person. But not necessarily.

Similarly when you call a person Türk you are probably referring to a Turkish speaking Muslim person. But not necessarily. There are Orthodox Christian Türks (Karamanlilar, Gagavuzlar), Judaist Türks (Kırımkaraylar) etc.

In short you should be elaborate to define an ethnic group. "Yunanistan Müslümanları" refers every muslim community in Yunanistan namely; Türk, Albanian, Slav (Macedonian, Bulgarian), Rum, Roma/Sinti and Greek people of many other ethnic backgrounds. (Yes, there are muslim Greek, muslim Rum people both in Greece and also in Türkiye And they don't have to be converts) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.88.102.245 (talk) 08:56, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Greek converts

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A couple of important Greek Muslim converts:

John Tzelepes Komnenos, a nephew of the Byzantine emperor John II and claimed ancestor, in the female line, of the Ottoman sultans.

Misac Palaeologos Pasha, a member of the Byzantine Palaeologe dynasty and the Ottoman commander in the first siege of Rhodes.

Infobox Image

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@Βατο: The original title of the painting is "Jeunes Grecs à la mosquée", which translates as "Young Greeks at the Mosque". "Arnaoutes en prière" is not even an original alternative title. It was first mentioned by Luan Rama, in his 2016 publication "Les Albanais de Léon Gérôme/Shqiptarët e Léon Gérôme". Aside of him, all of the Museums and early publications that i checked present it with the original title:

@Demetrios1993: that title does not describe the subject of the painting, because J. L. Gérôme depicted the same Arnautes in several works: albanianart.net by Robert Elsie. The inaccuracy is the same as the painting titled Markos Botzaris, which does not depict Markos Botsaris, but an Arnaut chief, see Commons:File:Jean-Léon Gérôme – Marco Bozzari, 1874.jpg and Commons:File:Prayer in the Mosque.jpg. – Βατο (talk) 13:09, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So what? This is ridiculous. Paintings are not meant to be "accurate", they are paintings, not scientific works. And can you for once stop trying to have your way through edit-warring and try to reach a consensus in the talkage? The "my way or the highway" approach is getting really old. Khirurg (talk) 14:54, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Khirurg: the stable version is without it, hence you have to reach consensus before reverting. A painting that depicts an unrelated subject can't be included as the image of the Infobox of this article. Your statement Paintings are not meant to be "accurate", they are paintings, not scientific works is inappropriate here because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and editors should include accurate content. – Βατο (talk) 15:12, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree with Bato's statement. Having a painting which depicts Albanians in an article that is supposed to be about Greeks is not logical, the previous picture was better suited for the topic. Ahmet Q. (talk) 17:06, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The image that is disputed whether it shows Muslim Greeks or Muslim Albanians certainly should not be in the article. The Greek Muslim soldier/Mamluk pic can stay where it is, can go to the infobox or where Demetrios moved it to. The first and the third option seem to be better than having a pic in the infobox of an entire and diverse community. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:39, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that we are even arguing about something so trivial is ridiculous. The artist doesn't present Arnauts in the respective painting, he presents Greeks, hence the title. He was very well aware that Arnauts and Greeks were two distinct people, so his choice of a title is certainly not based on ignorance or mistake. And no, the artist hasn't painted these two Greek youths that are depicted praying anywhere else. The original title of the work and the one that continues to be used up to this day uninterruptedly is Jeunes Grecs à la mosquée/Young Greeks in the Mosque, not Arnaoutes en prière as it was falsely claimed in the rv reason. And even Arnaoutes en prière is an alternative title that was created subjectively by the Albanian diplomat Luan Rama in 2016, and as far as i am aware used only by him; something that also relates to WP:WEIGHT. And that isn't the only painting that Rama associates with Albanians from a subjective point of view. Anyway, for the sake of ending this trivial discussion i am returning it to the stable version. Demetrios1993 (talk) 22:01, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of partial origin section

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This page deals with Greek Muslims, who are of Greek origin. The section on partial Greek origin seems ridiculous, some of these figures are included because they had a grandfather or some ancestor that was Greek. This page should only include clearly Greek Muslims, not people who have some Greek ancestry because of one parent or grandparent or great-grandparent. Unless Greek identity was somehow relevant to them (such as being raised as a Greek), it should be removed. Veritaes Unam (talk) 05:13, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with this proposition. Descent from a specific ethnic group can be both partial and full, and the title of this section is accurate and NPOV, namely "Muslims of partial Greek descent (non-conversions)". Furthermore, even if the descent from a certain ethnic group is partial, it is important enough and is included in the articles of the respective individuals as well. Last, the claim that only a grandparent or some other distant ancestor of theirs was Greek is false. By doing a quick scan i saw that mostly their mothers were Greek. Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:03, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But the page is about “Greek Muslims.” Meaning that they have an ethnic identity as Greek, or speak Greek, or were raised as Greek, not just having one parent that is Greek. That isn’t enough to define them as “Greek Muslims” in a meaningful sense Veritaes Unam (talk) 18:13, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Per the lede of this article, Greek Muslims, also known as Grecophone Muslims, are Muslims of Greek ethnic origin whose adoption of Islam (and often the Turkish language and identity) dates to the period of Ottoman rule in the southern Balkans., thus it doesn't only pertain to having been raised as Greek (and later converting) or speaking the Greek language or having a Greek ethnic identity (consciousness). Demetrios1993 (talk) 20:39, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Having thought about it, you’re right, for some reason it seemed strange at first, but you’ve explained your reasoning well. Thank you for responding! Veritaes Unam (talk) 21:08, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

east thrace 1914, population exchange 1923 and istanbul pogrom 1955

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The article misses the Greeks who forcibly converted to Islam in 1914, 1923 and 1955 to stay in Turkey and not expelled to Greece. Marillesa (talk) 14:46, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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