Wikipedia talk:WikiProject NASCAR/Archive 9

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject NASCAR. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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Me and Louieoddie have been discussing ways to shorten Gordon's article, since it's getting awfully long at the moment. Additional input would be appreciated here. Zappa24Mati 15:45, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

At the moment, it looks like the plan is to split his Cup career section into a separate article of its own. Zappa24Mati 18:29, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati and Jahn1234567890: Per the discussion going on at Talk:Jim Clark, it appears we need notability guidelines for the results tables in drivers' articles. Clark's have been deemed un-notable since he only drove in one race; similarly, Dario Franchitti only drove in NASCAR for one season and is more well-known for his IndyCar career. Are his results notable enough? I believe we need to have guidelines set in stone so that we don't end up doing work that will later be deleted. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bentvfan54321 (talk • contribs)

@Bentvfan54321: Hm, tough to say. I don't think Franchitti's the best example for this, since he's competed in more than one race combined across all three national series. I ran across the same problem a few months back with Kimi Räikkönen's NASCAR results (proof); I think in this case, we might have to go against the saying of "quality over quantity", and go with "quantity over quality (of series)": to me, as long as a driver has attempted more than one race in a series (that is not the series that they mainly competed in), they should get a results table for that series. Zappa24Mati 01:41, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati: Did I seriously forget again? Dagnabit. Anyway, I see both arguments here. There's a part of me that wants to include it because the series is notable for nearly everyone else; however, there's a part of me that doesn't want to include it because it was a one-off that can be simply covered in prose. We'll see if others chime in. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 02:17, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

What are missing is how notability works. Notability means it should be included in the article. The prefered method is prose, or text. Tables are an addendum to the text, not the other way around. Write it first. If there is a subsidiary benefit to tabulating individual race results within a season, then that is the second step. Not the first. --Falcadore (talk) 06:48, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I've removed Kimi Räikkönen's NASCAR results as it was essentially a one-off test run at Charlotte that didn't work out. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 14:41, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to make an official project policy on the use of the serial comma (a.k.a. the Oxford comma). It's the comma that you use in a sentence list such as this, that[,] and yada yada yada. I bring this up because I've been going back and forth with Ptb1997 on this with the race reports. I hadn't brought it up until now because it's a minor nitpick and MOS:SERIAL dictates either way is fine. However, a lot of the race reports are inconsistent with this and that's why I'm bringing this up. Now I can with either way, but I think Wikiproject:NASCAR should have an official stance on whether to use or not to use the serial comma. My vote would be for not using it because that's how I'm taught in the journalism world. What do y'all think?--Nascar king 23:37, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I for one have been brought up being taught to use it; however, either one is fine with me. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 23:59, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I used to use them, but after being advised about the fact that I probably use commas way too often, I've toned down on them. I think it's fine to use either. Zappa24Mati 17:54, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Before I begin, rest in peace Buddy Baker. I heard the news on The Morning Drive that what we all knew was coming had come. Even when you know it's coming, you can never prepare for it.

Alright, here's what I'm here about. I'll be at Bristol Motor Speedway for the Cup race next week. I've also got tickets for the Xfinity and Truck race. That Truck ticket also includes the 2015 NASCAR Whelen Modified Tour and 2015 NASCAR Whelen Southern Modified Tour race. Now I know Jamie McMurray still needs a new article photo as do a few other drivers. Are there any other drivers in the Sprint Cup, Xfinity, Truck and/or Whelen and Whelen Southern that need new article pics that I can take while I'm there?--Nascar king 12:10, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

@Nascarking: It's been a sad year in motorsports.

Anyway, in the Cup Series, obviously, asides from Jamie Mac... Kasey Kahne, Matt DiBenedetto, and Cole Whitt are some locked-in drivers that could have some updated photos, as well. Assuming you can get better quality photos than the ones currently used, I think Danica Patrick and David Ragan could use some updating. Depending on when the entry list is released, maybe some of the one-offs could use better/newer photos.

In the Xfinity Series, assuming Royalbroil goes to the Road America race again and does his usual photo taking, I think there'll be less for you to take, though there will probably be some guys that run at Bristol but not RA, like Brandon Jones.

In the Truck Series, there's a lot more guys to take pics of: Mason Mingus, Spencer Gallagher, Justin Jennings, Norm Benning, Ray Black, Jr., John Hunter Nemechek, Tyler Reddick, Ben Kennedy, Timothy Peters, Cameron Hayley and Cole Custer all have articles and I assume are expected to run, but no photos.

In the Southern Mods, I don't think any of the drivers with articles need photos.

In the regular Modified Tour: Ryan Preece, Ted Christopher, Donny Lia, Justin Bonsignore, Bobby Santos III and Todd Szegedy all need photos, though Christopher just needs an updated image. Zappa24Mati 15:56, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I have tickets for the Xfinity race at Road America at the end of August. I'll photograph all of the cars and drivers again. My suggestion is take photographs of everything - fill up the memory card. I'm anticipating more road course ringers since the date was moved and Cup isn't also running a road course that day (they're off). Hopefully it will do a light rain here because rain makes for an interesting race! But that's unlikely since rain (this time of the year) usually is late afternoon / evening thunderstorms not light rain. Royalbroil 11:36, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

If somebody could help me out with adding the user box to my profile page so people who pass my profile can see I'm a part of this project, the help would greatly be appreciated! JRNIXDO 23:46, 11 August 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by RBigGame48 (talk • contribs)

@RBigGame48:  Done Zappa24Mati 23:50, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

During my GA review for the 2012 Gatorade Duels a point was raised about the lack of an infobox as like the 2011 Gatorade Duels. Would any members approve of the creation of a specialized infobox for Daytona 500 qualifying races? All views are welcome. Z105space (talk) 11:09, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

@Z105space: I'd have no issue with someone making one. But for the 2015 Budweiser Duels, I just used a customized infoxbox like we use for the All-Star Race. So if you can't wait for someone to make a specialized one, use the one I used for the 2015 race.--Nascar king 11:25, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Z105space (talk) 12:01, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

I finally finished uploading images of the field from the 2013 ARCA race at Road America. I didn't get a photo of one local start and park driver in his only national race. So if you write an article on someone who passed through the ARCA ranks in 2013, there's a good chance that there's already an image on him at Commons here. You can also keep in mind that I photographed the whole field at the ARCA Midwest Tour event in 2014 - including great closeup driver shots before the race and cars on the track (some found here but I can upload anything else like Ty Majeski or NASCAR drive for Diversity driver Natalie Decker who both have a good shot at the big time). Royalbroil

The article on the 2012 Daytona 500 is up for peer review which is linked here. I intend that the article reach FAC, with a view of having it be on the main page on February 27, 2017. All feedback (including constructive criticism) is appreciated.

Could we set the bot to a longer archive time? 7 days seems way to short to me. How about 30 days instead? I was just going to add to an earlier comment of mine and I find it gone. I'm not here every day. Royalbroil 13:00, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

@Royalbroil: I agree. Also, any reason the two oldest threads here have remained on the page without being archived? Is it because they have no timestamps? --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 13:49, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I was thinking timestamp too. Royalbroil 11:47, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

As some of you may be aware, there has been a dispute the past few days over whether we should use "Jayski" or "Adamczyk" on the above page when referring to Jay Adamczyk, the founder of the website. Adamczyk himself (Jayski36) has been repeatedly changing the usage back to "Jayski," while I, adhering to WP:SURNAME, believe we should use "Adamczyk." While Adamczyk sent me an email saying that he will not be "wasting [his] time with this anymore" among other things, I want to ask other editors of their opinion and to keep an eye on the page, knowing that a major contributor to the article has a COI in the article. Thanks, --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 12:05, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

He's known as Jayski. Per SURNAME: "People who are best known by a pseudonym should be subsequently referred to by their pseudonymous surnames, unless they do not include a recognizable surname in the pseudonym (e.g. Sting, Snoop Dogg, the Edge), in which case the whole pseudonym is used". So I think mention his real name once then use a pronoun ("He") or Jayski thereafter. Royalbroil 12:16, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

@Royalbroil: I see your point, but we're talking about the founder of a website who many Wikipedia readers may not be familiar with. It's obvious Shakira goes by her stage name; this is not a dispute over using "Shakira" or "Ripoll." Nearly everyone knows that she is referred to as almost exclusively as Shakira. Many NASCAR fans likely know that Adamczyk goes by "Jayski," but to an average reader, it may not be that obvious. I'll change it back if that's the consensus, but my personal opinion is that Adamczyk is a more encyclopedic term in this case. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 12:26, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

While sifting through my camera, I noticed that I had taken some pictures of the Harley J. Earl Trophy that's given to the winner of the Daytona 500. Excluding the ones of the real trophy with drivers standing next to them during driver introductions, I have four of the real Harley J. Earl Trophy – the really big one with all the names of all the past winners on it – and two of the smaller replica that was given to Joey Logano for winning the 2015 Daytona 500. I have no problem with uploading them, but is that something I can do through Wikimedia Commons or just upload them through Wikipedia like we do with race sponsor logos? Since it's a probably trademarked object and is the focus of the shots, Commons might not let me upload them.--Nascar king 23:54, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

NOT Commons! I had trophy pics deleted. It is considered art and the copyright is owned by the trophy designer. I see and agree with that point as a Commons admin. You have to upload under fair use here on the English Wikipedia. Royalbroil 11:57, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

It took me all day, but I've finally uploaded pictures of all 43 Xfinity Series drivers from last Friday's Food City 300 at Bristol Motor Speedway. For most of the drivers, I managed to snag multiple shots of them. You can find all of them in my Wikimedia Commons file list here. If you'd like me to crop a specific photo, tell me here or on my talk page.--Nascar king 23:42, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

There are driver's categories for almost all of the drivers, so please add them to all of the photographs (and make ones for those who don't have a category). Also, the images should be added to 2015 in NASCAR Xfinity Series category. The easiest way is to create a category for the race (which you should please do anyhow since you made Category:Bristol Motor Speedway unmanageable with a large number of images). I just started on identifying the best images that I took for the field of drivers at the following race at Road America. Normally I would expect to see just cropped images down to the drivers and that's what I'm gonna do. That's the form that we want on the article - not distracting people who have nothing to do with the drivers. If I were doing the task that you just did, I would include images of anyone accepting an award though. Here's what I'm doing for Road America. Royalbroil 12:17, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Both me and Nascarking aren't too sure about this one: Obviously, we're getting all these awesome throwback schemes (minus Gordon, McMurray and JGR, apparently) for the race, though we're not too sure as to whether or not to add them to the article. Normally, we wouldn't mention paint schemes in race articles, but considering the fanfare and how many people are doing it, we're sort of torn. We have the reliable sources for them, so that's not a concern, but is it too trivial, or would it be fine for this one race to add them? Zappa24Mati 22:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I think it's unusually prolific and worth several sentences in one paragraph in the background section since it's getting so much fanfare (and so many drivers doing special paint schemes for the race). Royalbroil 03:44, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

It took me all day, but I've finally finished uploading the entire starting lineup of the 2015 Irwin Tools Night Race to Commons. They can all be found here. Feel free to go through them and put them where you think they need to go.--Nascar king 22:18, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I photographed almost the entire field at Road America on the inside of Turn 6 while the drivers were cornering. Fans can get close to the action with little in the way and I didn't feel in danger like I would in the infield for most tracks (that is whats stopping me from being a track photographer - I do have good enough equipment and experience). I used a slow shutter speed to get the blur on the tires and I have great shots. Turn 6 is a downhill corner and I'm wondering if I should leave the lean on the photographs or if I should level the cars. Some people like artsy leaning photographs. I uploaded examples of Lawson Aschenbach to my flickr account: Straight out of camera, leaning-edit 1, and level-edit2. What does everyone think about how should I crop them? RoyalbroilAlt 17:30, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to make them level. RoyalbroilAlt 19:00, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

If any of y'all haven't noticed on your watch lists by now, the Wikipedia library is taking applications from users for a free year usage of a website called Newspaperarchive.com. I've browsed it and it's got a lot of NASCAR-related news items. This might help some of you guys who write race articles of races that took place before the explosion of the Internet. I've already signed up for it and you guys should too. The link is Wikipedia:Newspaperarchive.com.--Nascar king 16:58, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

A few weeks ago, I brought up the idea of including a list of reliable sources in the standards section. I was wondering if y'all had any suggestions for unreliable sources we could include. Personally, the only one I find unreliable is Frontstretch.com with their bloggers who not only show clear bias against the leaders of NASCAR (not that that's necessarily wrong) and often present a false-narrative that's widely been debunked by actual journalists. What do y'all have to say?--Nascar king 20:23, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Nothing jumps out to me but I'm interested to see what everyone has to say! Royalbroil 11:39, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Not too sure on this one at Talk:Jeff_Gordon#Correct spelling of Gordon's first name, since sources seem sort of... "divided" as to whether it's Jeffery or Jeffrey. The ol' Google machine test seems to bring up more results with the latter than the former, though I'm still not too sure. What do you guys think? Zappa24Mati 02:42, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Here's some images that I took at the Road America race for drivers who don't have articles yet. Royalbroil (talk · contribs)

• 
  Michael Self
• 
  Michael Self
• 
  Roger Reuse with boy
• 
  Roger Reuse
• 
  Roger Reuse
• 
  Tim Cowen
• 
  Tim Cowen

 Done RoyalbroilAlt 17:39, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I've got a ticket for the Cup race at Talladega next week. This one will be special for me because four drivers will be done in Dega and it'll be the last time I'll ever get to see Jeff Gordon race in person. I've got a fan pass that allows me to be on track during driver introductions. Basically, I'll be as close as I was during the intros for the 2015 Daytona 500. Now since this is my fourth race of 2015, there's a good chance I've gotten to most of the Sprint Cup drivers. So I just want to know if there's any driver I should put on my priority pics list.--Nascar king 02:00, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

@Nascarking: I've been noticing you and the track talking to each other on Twitter about this. Anyway, the obvious priority would be Jamie McMurray, since unless another user manages to take a pic of him at Kansas, the Eliminator Round or Homestead races, his current photo's going to be almost nine years old by next year. I'm pretty sure we'll see some more new guys show up for a plate race, so I'll probably add more once the entry list pops up. Zappa24Mati 02:16, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

While we're at it, is there any pictures I should take at the International Motorsports Hall of Fame? I can't promise I'll have time to tour it, but I'll try if the time allows.--Nascar king 22:19, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm jealous - I always wanted to see the IMHoF but it's too far. Could you try to improve the pic of the outside of the building? Hopefully with the sun at your back on a sunny day. RoyalbroilAlt 19:03, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

There was an earlier thread here about photographing certain drivers only. Experience has taught me to always photograph the entire field - especially if you go to any kind of touring series or regional event. I go back to my archives MANY times each year and pull out old photographs of drivers who were in a lower touring series who now has an article. Who would have thought in 2008 that 15 year old Brett Moffitt in ASALM would be in Sprint Cup by 2015? Or 17 year old local driver Joey Gase in 2010? Erik Jones? Some local drivers DO become NASCAR drivers! Royalbroil 13:11, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

@Royalbroil: Speaking of images, I assume you probably don't, but do you happen to have any images of Sam Hornish, Jr. or his car from his Panther Racing days? I'm working to bring his article up to GA status and feel that an image of his Panther car would improve the article quality. Thanks, --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 14:00, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

@Royalbroil: Since this was brought up, I was able to get pics of all the drivers in yesterday's Xfinity Series race during driver intro's. This would include Morgan Shepherd. My laptop has been on the fritz lately so I won't be able to upload anything for a day or two, but I got all of them.--Nascar king 14:12, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for doing this, @Nascarking:! I don't have any NASCAR images to upload right now. The race at RA is next Saturday, by then you might have uploaded the images. I take thousands of images so it will take me quite a bit of time to figure what I have, then eliminate, then crop, then upload. I usually upload 1-2 images of the cars and 1 driver pic to Commons then only replace what will actually improve an article (not equal or poorer). To photograph the drivers, I found an unobstructed spot along the guardrail looking up where the background is often sky. Processing these images is a huge project. I went to Road America earlier this year for a motorcycle race and I found another spot nearby where the photographers were taking photographs late in the afternoon. I saw some images taken there on flickr and I'm going to try it out as a second opportunity. Royalbroil 12:12, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

There are a bunch of drivers in tomorrow's Road America field who don't have images. Local television forecast is morning rain which might impact the early support races (and maybe 11:15 am qualifying) but probably won't be much impact beyond drizzle by the mid afternoon. Royalbroil 02:05, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

I got 800 drivers image.. hopefully good ones for all 40 drivers. RoyalbroilAlt 18:56, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Several photographs have other people riding along with the drivers on the back of the pickup trucks - women and children. Should I upload both images? Maybe someone can identify the "others" and use the photographs for a personal life/family section. RoyalbroilAlt 19:07, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm currently (actually, that might be an exaggeration) working to improve Sam Hornish, Jr. to GA status and have used an image of him with his daughter in his personal life section. I'd say upload both, as other articles may benefit in a similar way. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 22:54, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

@Bentvfan54321:, I would like to do a peer review for the article. Please let me know (under my regular login) once you're satisfied with the article. Hopefully it will be in October or later because I'm going to be VERY busy for the next month or two. RoyalbroilAlt 14:47, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

@Royalbroil: @RoyalbroilAlt: So am I, as I'm back in school, though hopefully it will be done by then (October). I just need to do some research and hopefully then I'll be able to expand the personal life section a bit. Thanks, --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 22:09, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

@Bentvfan54321: It's a good thing I have Web Design in school. I'll see if I can do anything as well while in class when there's no assignments. Zappa24Mati 04:14, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati and Royalbroil: I think it's close to done; just listed it at the requests page of the GOCE. Let me know if there are any major outstanding issues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bentvfan54321 (talk • contribs)

@ZappaOMati and Royalbroil: Well, it only took me two weeks to notice my unsigned (again) comment, which means you probably did not receive the pings. So here you go. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 01:13, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, for no response from me. I saw both messages. I'm way too busy in real life to do much meaningful help on Wikipedia for now. RoyalbroilAlt 19:06, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

@Royalbroil and RoyalbroilAlt: That's okay, the copyedit has just been finished. My main focus right now is with the game show project (Talk:Arthur Chu/GA1) but once I'm finished that, I plan to give this a GA nomination. Any last-minute feedback would be much appreciated. Thanks again! --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 22:07, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

The NASCAR sportswriter article is proposed to be deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Liz Clarke. Feel free to contribute. Royalbroil 13:18, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

I recently had a discussion with an IP user about when to use columns in the reference section of articles. We came to an agreement that it should be at 20. However, I don't feel comfortable with using a discussion with one other editor as a basis for project policy. I've always heard use columns when the number of references exceeds 30, but I've also heard it's just a suggestion and not a requirement. For race articles, we've typically only used columns in the reference list when the number of sources reaches an unusually high number. While the IP pointed out that other racing articles use columns when the number of references is far less, I'd like to note that not all articles are written in the same style. Just as Formula One articles are written by how Wikiproject:F1 feels is the best way to maximize the quality of a race article, we at Wikiproject:NASCAR have our own guide to maximizing the quality of NASCAR race reports. So what do y'all think?--Nascar king 14:52, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

I was wondering if someone would look at the Brad Keselowski article and see if some citations could be added or things removed in the article that lack sources. According to the talkpage, the article is just rated as a Start-class article, but that it has Mid-importance to this WikiProject, hence the request. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:42, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

@Super Goku V: Well, certainly should be Top-Importance considering he's an active champion of the sport. I'll keep this in mind for the future, but I don't have the time to pull another Sam Hornish, Jr. right now. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 00:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

@Bentvfan54321: Not a problem. Would it be ok to remove the "Keselowski and Kenseth had instantly gone from heroes to villains ..." line and the two portions on fixing at the least? --Super Goku V (talk) 03:10, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

@Super Goku V: Of course, that's not encyclopedic tone. I'd remove them. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 03:34, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

@Bentvfan54321: Thank you for your opinion. I am not normally an editor for Nascar pages, so I wanted to double check here, hence the request. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Super Goku V (talk • contribs)

I've got two things to bring up:

First, Phoenix International Raceway will officially rename the track Jeff Gordon Raceway for Sunday's race. Should we acknowledge this in the 2015 Quicken Loans Race for Heroes 500 race article that I'll create when MRN puts out the entry list?

Second, I think that for the four drivers racing for the title in the 2015 Ford EcoBoost 400 article, we should have a short summary of the season of those four drivers in the background section vs. a short rundown of the points standings as I've been doing all season. What I mean is having four level 4 subsections under background with each of the four drivers having a summary of their respective season's that led them to the championship race at Homestead-Miami Speedway. That's not really up my alley though, so would that be something you're up for @Bentvfan54321:?--Nascar king 13:50, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

@Nascarking: For the first one, I think we should. For the second one, I don't mind doing it myself. NFLisAwesome (ZappaOMati) 19:30, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

@Nascarking, ZappaOMati, and NFLisAwesome: You know me and race reports. Tucker, I know you and I tend to disagree slightly on format and how much detail is necessary. But I'd like to think, at least for right now, that's okay; I'm not a big fan of level 4 subsections as a whole, but I'm also a fan of consistency, so I certainly won't ask you to change structure for ONLY the final race of the season. My race reports tend to follow from the days of when @Nascar1996: was writing them on a weekly basis. (By the way, if you two wouldn't mind looking at 2006 UAW-Ford 500 and leaving comments and/or support here, I'd greatly appreciate it. I've tried to model it after 2010 Sylvania 300 and 2012 Budweiser Shootout, our other two FAs.)

Anyway, to get to the point, I don't know if A) I'll have the time to do this and B) if me interfering with your style of writing is a good idea, especially since this is only the final race of the season. Regarding Phoenix though, I think we should mention it no question. Homestead, I'm not so sure. Perhaps the picture will be clearer AFTER a champion is crowned and then we can discuss further. Thanks again for all the work you two do for the project! --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 21:09, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

@Nascarking: I've gotten an early start on it at User:ZappaOMati/sandbox/2; I'm done with Gordon and possibly Harvick's, now I just need to write Busch and Truex's. NFLisAwesome (ZappaOMati) 19:33, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

@Nascarking: Hope you don't mind, but since I finished the summaries, I added them to the article. Zappa24Mati 02:15, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Is there a problem with Template:Infobox NASCAR driver's Cup previous finish parameter? Whenever |Best_Cup_Pos is used, Motorsports[[{{{Previous_Year}}} NASCAR Cup Series|{{{Previous_Year}}}]] appears in its place, though if it's changed to |Previous_Year, it seems to work fine. NFLisAwesome (ZappaOMati) 19:24, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Which article is this problem occurring on? – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 19:51, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

It seemed to happen to some articles like Matt DiBenedetto ([1]) and Chase Elliott ([2]). Zappa24Mati 23:30, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I think I fixed the issue. [3] – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 23:39, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

With it being 90 days till the Daytona 500 (yes, I'm one of those guys who counts down everyday), I've been thinking if it's necessary that the Can-Am Duel races have their own individual race reports. It's not a question of whether or not I can gather content for them; that part is easy. The problem is that I can't write them without it being copied directly from the individual Daytona 500 race reports. Take the one from this past year. The 2015 Budweiser Duels article is virtually identical to the 2015 Daytona 500 article. Granted I'm one to talk given that I'm the one who largely wrote both articles, but I can't think of a way to write the Duel race reports differently than I do in the Daytona 500 race reports. So what do y'all think?--Nascar king 01:11, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

@Nascarking: I think it'd make more sense to do something like the 2013 Daytona 500 by providing a very brief summary of the races in the 500 article, with the results and a "full" summary in the Duels article. Zappa24Mati 01:23, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

@Nascarking and ZappaOMati: Agreed. The description of the Duels in 2015 Daytona 500 is far too superfluous, imo. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 03:01, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Those involved int the project may be interested in the discussion being held at ITNR. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 17:12, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

What does the group think about his notability? WP:TOOSOON or WP:GNG? He's on the cusp - major wins, lots on Speed51 but no NASCAR starts (yet). Royalbroil 13:39, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

@Royalbroil: I think he passes GNG, though I'm not sure about TOOSOON. Ross Kenseth had an article while still racing in the ARA Midwest Tour as well, but his page was made in 2013, so I'm not sure how much standards may have changed. Assuming standards have stayed the same, then I think the page can be moved to mainspace; otherwise, maybe wait until he makes his ARCA Racing Series debut? Zappa24Mati 23:36, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Ross got his article right before his first ARCA start, not the ARCA Midwest Tour, and it cited NBC Sports / the SPEED channel press. Plus his father is kinda famous helped him get the major press. In any case, thanks for the comments and spending time to review the article! Royalbroil 05:51, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to have another large table for all the broadcast networks, or even TV in the season schedule table on 2015 NASCAR Sprint Cup Series and other season articles? Most season articles either have a short summary of coverage (such as NFL, NBA, and NHL) or nothing about the broadcast networks (Formula One, WEC, and IMSA [most motorsport]). I think we should include some information about it (similar to what is in the lead), but a list of television networks should stay on NASCAR on television and radio not the season article. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 17:39, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

It should be moved back here as there is a broader issue. --Falcadore (talk) 22:09, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

I have brought up a proposal for season article standards on the article's talk page. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 01:19, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

I've been playing with a few ideas at Sprint Cup Series career of Jeff Gordon for the Career header, but I'm not too sure which one to go with, and the current one just seems too arbitrary. So far, I could only think of the following:

• By crew chief
  • 1992–1999: Ray Evernham years
  • 1999: Brian Whitesell
  • 2000–2005: Robbie Loomis years
  • 2005–2010: Steve Letarte years
  • 2011–2015: Alan Gustafson years
• By series name
  • Winston Cup (1992–2003)
  • Nextel Cup (2004–2007)
  • Sprint Cup (2008–2015)
• By "timespan"
  • 1992–1994: First years
  • 1995–2001: Championship years
  • 2002–2003: ???
  • 2004–2007: Chase years
  • 2008–2010: Struggles
  • 2011–2015: Final years

Any suggestions? Zappa24Mati 21:17, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati: Timespan would be best to me, provided we can come up with a good subtitle for 2002–03. Also, speaking of Gordon, are you still working on User:ZappaOMati/Axalta? --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 00:40, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

@Bentvfan54321: I forgot I had that, so no. If you want to take it over or move it to mainspace, go ahead, though the History and Products sections could be more developed. Zappa24Mati 01:36, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

@Bentvfan54321: The only thing I can think of for 02-03 is "Late Winston Cup years". There's also 1996, 2006, 2009, 2012-2014 that could use subtitles. Maybe "1996: Title defense" and "2009: Rebound"? I'm not too sure about 2006, 2012-2014, though. NFLisAwesome (ZappaOMati) 19:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati: That 02–03 option sounds good. It's tougher to come of with headers here; for Hornish, I pretty much just chose what series he was in or what team he was with. Obviously, given Gordon's career with Hendrick, we can't do that for him. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 23:01, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

We're only 70 more days from the 2016 Daytona 500. Until then, I've finally finished uploading the pictures I took during driver intro's for the 2015 CampingWorld.com 500 at Talladega. I got pics of every driver including Jamie McMurray. Just click this link here for all of them.--Nascar king 18:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Nascarking: Great job! The only gripe I have with the photos is that the drivers are "distanced", so they could use some cropping and zooming in. Zappa24Mati 18:23, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree. I spend many hours after each Xfinity race categorizing, cropping, and rotating every image that I upload. I use gIMP to do the work. It's a free program. I think that we should not be using uncropped images. There are better cropped images available in almost all cases. As a Wikipedia consumer, I'd rather see an older cropped image than a newer uncropped image. You did an excellent job of finding the right angle to photograph the shots! Royalbroil 13:53, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

It's not that I don't have a program to crop the photos because I do. It's just that cropping is a really time-consuming task and I'd rather not crop every last one of them when we're only going to use 10 of them at most.--Nascar king 14:53, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Tell me about it. I know that it's very time consuming. That's why I often upload the group months later. You could just crop the ones that you want to use otherwise. Thanks for the explanation. Royalbroil 15:38, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I have proposed a change to the wording of the "Season in progress" footnotes which accompany motorsport results tables which the season is still in progress. Interested editors are invited to comment at the centralised discussion. Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 21:55, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

I know I've brought up here in the past how to incorporate the Duels into the main Daytona 500 race reports while still giving that year's Duel a reason to have its own standalone report. What would y'all say to doing an inverted pyramid news story summary of it? What that basically means is it would start by saying who won and run down the list of major events like wrecks. That would be more up my alley being a journalist outside of Wikipedia. Then for the race report in the Duel article, we just do it like we do the others.--Nascar king 13:29, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

The standards say that anyone who has attempted at least one national series start is considered notable enough for a page. Does the same apply to the ARCA Racing Series as well? I've been working on Todd Gilliland's page for a while at User:ZappaOMati/Todd Gilliland, and I think it's ready to be moved in terms of content, but I'm not sure about notability. I think being the youngest winner in ARCA history is notable enough, but I don't really know... Zappa24Mati 04:11, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Well, ARCA would actually fall under WP:MOTORSPORT, not WP:NASCAR...but anyway, I'm pretty sure Todd passes WP:GNG at this point. As for in general, I'd say "attempted/started ARCA" would not be an automatic-notability situation, as I don't think the series clears WP:NMOTORSPORT #1 (note that somebody really should change the example given there as that's the old and glorious Trans-Am series being referred to). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

@The Bushranger: I posted it here since most ARCA drivers made NASCAR starts eventually, but WP:MOTORSPORT probably makes more sense anyway. So I guess at least an ARCA win would make them notable, then? NFLisAwesome (ZappaOMati) 18:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

I'd say yes, but the Notability Brigade ("the sum total of human knowledge, that is notable, with what is notable being tightened year by year!") might not agree. For ARCA-Only Drivers I just default to GNG to avoid the potential headache. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:21, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

An editor has removed sponsor information from many, many articles, with the given reason that sponsors are "not notable". Given how closely drivers are associated with their sponsors, and how crucial branding is in NASCAR, is there any reason I should not undo these actions? For instance, how is Piedmont Airlines unimportant to the career of Terry Labonte? 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 15:08, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

First off, I'd like to say: "MLB, you suck." Anyway, so what should we do about the Mudsummer Classic name? Supposedly, it's the "#Eldora at Eldora Speedway" according to a source I found from NBC Sports (it's at the article right now), but I'm not sure if it's one of those tentative names until sponsorship arrives or if that's the official name. Normally it's be the former, but the way it's being treated by Eldora's Twitter and the fact that a NASCAR journalist actually wrote an article about it makes me think otherwise. What do you guys think? NFLisAwesome (ZappaOMati) 19:39, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

What do you all think of this article's notability? Should some of the information about the die-casts be moved to the company that made/makes them (such as Lionel, LLC, etc.) instead of having its own dedicated article? – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 01:16, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Man, that's a poorly written piece of garbage... perhaps the topic is notable (I'll let others determine that for themselves), but if it is, some major work needs to be done to it. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 02:07, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

So I finally stopped being lazy and uploaded my race pictures from the 2015 CampingWorld.com 500 at Talladega today. I had two pictures that I had to flip a coin on and wanted to know which one y'all think should be used.

Picture No. 1 is not as sharp as the other picture, but it's got more of the Big One as it happened.

Picture No. 2 is far more sharp, but it's more of the aftermath of the Big One.

So which one do y'all think should be used?--Nascar king 02:00, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I'd choose the second picture because it is clearer. Also, the watermark should be removed if you have the software to do it. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 02:30, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Several race articles that were using Template:Infobox NASCAR race have been changed to Template:Infobox motor race. Which one should we really use? Does it even matter since they are basically the same template? By the way, I found this discussion about a similar infobox issue over at Wikipedia:TFD. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 02:45, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't really see much difference between the two asides from the "new" one having the series name in a purple background and List of NASCAR tracks not being linked in the "Venue" section, the latter seeming pretty unnecessary, to be honest. I don't really care too much about which one is used, since both of them are so similar. Zappa24Mati 02:52, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

There are probably more race articles using the motor race template instead of NASCAR race template. I believe we should be consistent in what one we decide to use though. The NASCAR template has around 100 transclusions, and several are from an editor's userspace. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 02:57, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh it's the most wonderful time of year!!! If your response is Christmas Day, then you're on the wrong wikiproject. #DaytonaDay is this Sunday! After a long, cold and brutal offseason, we're back to racing at Daytona International Speedway this Sunday for the 58th running of the Great American Race, the Daytona 500!!!

But now onto business. I'm going to be on assignment for next weekend's festivities at Atlanta Motor Speedway. I'll be there for the Cup, Xfinity and Truck Series races. I know there's not much I need to get on the Sprint Cup Series side other than the new rookies, but I'll still get pictures of everybody at driver introductions. If there's anybody I should focus on specifically, let me know. As for Xfinity and Truck, who do I need to focus on?--Nascar king 12:42, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

@Nascarking: For the Cup Series, I don't believe there's anyone needed unless there's a part-timer taking over a ride and they don't have a photo. Assuming TMG returns for Atlanta with Josh Wise, I believe he could use a higher quality image. In the Xfinity Series, Brennan Poole, Ryan Preece, B. J. McLeod, Ray Black, Jr. and Corey LaJoie are full-timers that need photos. In the Truck Series, Cole Custer, Grant Enfinger, John Hunter Nemechek, Tyler Reddick, Austin Wayne Self, Korbin Forrister, Ben Kennedy, Timothy Peters and Cameron Hayley are full-timers that are expected to race in Atlanta. Zappa24Mati 16:50, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

I just wanted to let y'all know that the driver intro pictures might be a little harder for me to get than I thought being in the media center. However, I was able to get a whole bunch of shots of the cars from the Cup, XFINITY and Truck garages if that works.--Nascar king 12:06, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

I think we sould get rid of the "INJ" in result tables. The main point of these tables is showing off the driver's result and if a driver is not entered for an event I don't see why we should add anything. We also only add the "Wth" label if a driver participated during the weekend. I think we only should add a result if a driver actually took part during the weekend. What do you guys think? Jahn1234567890 (talk) 13:42, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati: @Bentvfan54321: As you guys allong with me work the most on Nascar result tables I would like to know what you think of this proposal. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 20:59, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Somehow I missed this, maybe because this monstrosity is my main focus right now (and I'm real busy with school). Anyway, I'm fine either way, so long as there's a standard and consistency among all drivers (I'd lean towards removing it because it has nothing to do with a driver participating in a weekend, Felipe Massa's table isn't flooded with INJ's for half of 2009...). Speaking of tables, this kinda went somewhere...and then we forgot about it. If we have qualifying notes, should there be relief notes? --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 21:36, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Personally, I'm fine with keeping/removing INJ as well. Felipe Massa and Alex Zanardi's results tables aren't spammed with INJ, so I don't think guys like Smoke should as well. I'm fine with the Wth only being used for drivers who participated in a weekend session, though. Zappa24Mati 01:24, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Great so I will start with removing all the INJ in the result tables Jahn1234567890 (talk) 13:19, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

And I removed it from the key. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 21:55, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I have no knowledge of notability standards for NASCAR drivers so could someone please take a look at the Lauri Kuulei Wong article which has been proposed for deletion by another editor. Also appears to be a autobiography. AusLondonder (talk) 03:47, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

@AusLondonder: Normally Dodge Weekly Series drivers don't get Wikipedia articles. For a NASCAR driver to get an article, they usually have to have at least one start in the Camping World Truck Series, Xfinity Series or Sprint Cup Series unless there's something major that makes them notable otherwise. Zappa24Mati 04:00, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

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I've been copyediting some NASCAR articles lately and have noticed that the number sign (#) is used almost exclusively when referring to driver numbers. I just wanted to point out that the MOS endorses the use of "No." and "Nos." and says to avoid using the number sign. Sorry if this has been mentioned before. Primergrey (talk) 23:21, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

@Primergrey: It has been about halfway instituted here to use "No.", but there are plenty of # that have found their way into articles. I try to fix them when I run across them. United States Man (talk) 23:25, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Are race reports for the Xfinity Series and Truck Series notable enough to have their own article? There's three Truck Series race reports that currently have their own article and the only one or two that I think is notable enough for its own article is the 2013 Mudsummer Classic because it was the first race to be held on a dirt surface in decades. However, are 2000 Chevy Silverado 200 and 2013 Kroger 200 notable (the latter having more significance since the winner was the first African-American to win in several decades)? Should we create the notability guideline on these race reports? – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 16:01, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

@Nascar1996: I'm personally in favor in all Xfinity and Truck Series race reports articles being kept. Z105space (talk) 16:13, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

@Nascar1996: If it's notable for reasons like a major milestone and passes the GNG, I think it's fine. I'd treat the lower series races like an NFL game; unless there's something great that came out of it (some sort of notable first, maybe the last event in a certain network/driver's career, huge wreck?), it probably shouldn't have a page. NFLisAwesome (ZappaOMati) 17:52, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I find network information rather irrelevant to the actual race and would probably be better on the season article instead. A significant driver fatality most likely would justify the creation a race report though. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 20:00, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

This thread's probably gonna be archived shortly, so I figured I might as well ask first just to be certain. I've got three lower series race reports: the 2013 Chevrolet Silverado 250 (first Truck race in Canada and first Truck road race since 2000), the 2002 Aaron's 312 at Talladega (largest crash in NASCAR's modern history) and 2013 Aaron's 312 (pretty crazy race and finish, similar vein to the Cup race after due to rain and crashes). Personally, I feel like the Mosport and 2002 Aaron's 312 could get pages, but I'm not sure. NFLisAwesome (ZappaOMati) 18:17, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

All three races look notable enough imo. The 2013 Chevrolet Silverado is good for DYK since Chase Elliott became the series' youngest Truck Series race winner in the event. Z105space (talk) 18:38, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

What would be the best way to go about documenting the owner's championship in season articles? Right now, a table that closely resembles the drivers table appear on NXS and Truck articles. It's a bit large, and I don't believe the fifth place finisher in the owner's championship is necessarily notable to the season overall. Should the table be kept and implemented on all articles (other than the Cup Series), or should we remove it and write the winner in prose in the lead? – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 14:59, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

As we all know, today's NXS race will have heat races. However, how exactly are we going to list the pole sitter? I don't recall much of the heat rules, but would we list the pole sitter as the guy who qualified first (Erik Jones in this case) or the guy who won heat #1? Eldora doesn't really help since the fastest qualifier ended up winning their respective heat. Zappa24Mati 14:36, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I would think the pole-sitter would be Jones because of qualifying first. NASCAR.com currently has the description "Erik Jones wins pole at Bristol." Furthermore, Bob Pockrass tweeted "Whoever wins qualifying will be credited with the pole for stats/bonus. But pole for main event will be heat winner w/best qualifying result" earlier. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 15:34, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

@Nascar1996: So what about for situations like this weekend since there was no qualifying? Just go with Heat #1 winner? Zappa24Mati 17:17, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati: I haven't been paying attention to the Xfinity Series this weekend so I'm not sure. I'd say it would have been whoever would have won the pole if it was a regular weekend. Wouldn't that mean it would be the driver who started first in the first heat? – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 17:41, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

@Nascar1996: I suppose it's the same. Looking at Jayski, there was no qualifying because it was rained out, not because of a spontaneous rule change for the heats. In this case, I guess Matt Tifft would be listed as the pole-sitter since he started the first heat on pole, despite Erik Jones winning it? Zappa24Mati 17:48, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati: It could be either of them. However, since qualifying was cancelled no one actually won the pole position. A driver will just start first in the race. So really it could even be left blank. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 17:54, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati: I think the Pole gets awarded to the Driver who wins the 1st heat race. according to Racing Reference Allgaier was the Pole siter at Dover. So I guess that Allgaier should be given the Pole for Dover but I'm not sure Jahn1234567890 (talk) 22:55, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati and Jahn1234567890: I doubt NASCAR even knows who won the pole position, but this article says "Erik Jones went from pole position to victory lane in Saturday's Xfinity Series race." I haven't found any articles that say Allgaier won the pole even though he started first. I also found an image of Erik Jones posing with the 21 means 21 pole flag, which I assume is from Dover. (Pole image) – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 02:36, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

@Nascar1996 and Jahn1234567890: I guess we can treat it like how NASCAR would treat a pole winner if they have some sort of problem after qualifying that forces them to move to the rear of the field. Even though they don't start first, they're still considered the pole winner. In this case, maybe we can just go with the fastest driver in the qualifying session as the pole winner. Zappa24Mati 02:41, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

@Nascar1996 and ZappaOMati: I agree, Awarding the pole to the fastet qualifier would make the most sense anyways. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 07:03, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

I've posted a note at the reliable sources noticeboard about jayski.com; editors at this project who are familiar with the site may wish to comment there. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:22, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

This topic has been brought up a couple times according to the archive index, but it did not receive any responses from other editors. While sponsors basically are the financial backbone for teams that allow them to compete in NASCAR, should they be mentioned in articles such as in results tables, team lists, season articles, etc.? NASCAR's official documents also usually list the sponsors on each car. The reason I've removed the sponsors before from several pages mostly because I feel that the sponsors did not directly contribute to the race, driver, etc, they make tables large and sometimes unreadable, and some sponsors are not notable enough to have their own article on Wikipedia. I'm bringing topic up for discussion because I attempted to remove the sponsors from List of NASCAR teams, but it was reverted. I did not undo the reversion because we currently do not have a guideline to follow when it comes to the inclusion or exclusion of sponsors. Anyone have any thoughts on the issue? – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 22:18, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

@Nascar1996: Wikipedia is not a list of indiscriminate information. It would be a major hassle to add every sponsor to each team. Particularly, sponsors should not be mentioned in results tables; since most teams have varying sponsorships regularly, it would be a huge inconvenience to add sponsors. For some drivers who have the same sponsor, it would look pretty fine, but it becomes extremely difficult when they have multiple sponsors:

NASCAR Sprint Cup Series results
Year	Team	No.	Make	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22	23	24	25	26	27	28	29	30	31	32	33	34	35	36	NSCC	Pts
1993	Hendrick Motorsports	24	DuPont	Chevy	DAY 5	CAR 34	RCH 6	ATL 4	DAR 24	BRI 17	NWS 34	MAR 8	TAL 11	SON 11	CLT 2	DOV 18	POC 28	MCH 2	DAY 5	NHA 7	POC 37	TAL 31	GLN 31	MCH 3	BRI 20	DAR 22	RCH 10	DOV 24	MAR 11	NWS 34	CLT 5	CAR 21	PHO 35	ATL 31							14th	3447
2015			Drive to End Hunger		DAY 33*			PHO 9					RCH 8	TAL 31		CLT 15																NHA 7									3rd	5038
			3M			ATL 41	LVS 18				BRI 3					DOV 10							IND 42					DAR 16	RCH 7				CLT 8	KAN 10	TAL 3
			Axalta Coating Systems						CAL 10	MAR 9								POC 14			DAY 6					GLN 41		BRI 20			CHI 14							TEX 9		HOM 6
			Panasonic Toughbook								TEX 7
			American Red Cross												KAN 4								MCH 21
			AARP Member Advantages																	SON 16		KEN 7	NHA 9		POC 3								DOV 12				MAR 1
			Pepsi																								MCH 17												PHO 6

As you can tell, 2015 was a complete struggle to make since Gordon had so many sponsors. I mean, look at how many errors there are in the 2015 section. Can you imagine how bad it would be for most of the backmarkers with even more sponsors? For the other pages, it's a harder call. It's fine to add them to the prose for driver pages (but not to the lead) unless it's extremely noteworthy (like Gordon with DuPont or Johnson with Lowe's). In pages like List of NASCAR teams, it just looks like a complete mumbo-jumbo of information (particularly the consistency known as Paul Menard's team). I know sponsors are the backbone for many teams, but it's a lot more reasonable to mention them in prose than in a table. Zappa24Mati 01:05, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Anyone else have any thoughts? I agree with ZappaOMati completely. While it may be important, sponsors are definitely not necessary in our articles, and would be a hassle to keep up-to-date. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 00:53, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati, Nascar1996, and Jahn1234567890: There was a time where I probably would have said yes. Now that I'm more experienced, however, I'm definitely going to vote no, per Justin's reasoning, and the monstrosity that is Gordon's table. I'm starting to even wonder if car numbers are taking it a bit too far when it comes to tables... --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 02:36, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Same with me. I also feel like sponsors are just not that interesting to point out. It is just making it harder to keep things up to date. So for me it is certainly a no. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 12:12, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

@Bentvfan54321: I think numbers are fine. I feel like my argument was a little weak when I made it at the time, but I tried to explain why we added them. I think numbers (and manufacturers, depending on team) are probably the furthest we should go regarding painful results table editing. Zappa24Mati 00:17, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

@Bentvfan54321 and ZappaOMati: Numbers should definitely be kept. Numbers are the easiest way to identify drivers (at least most of them anyway) for most readers. Without numbers, tables may cause confusions relating to multi-car teams like Hendrick Motorsports, Joe Gibbs racing, etc. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 00:25, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

@Nascar1996 and ZappaOMati: Well then, should we add them [numbers] back to IndyCar and F1 tables? --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 03:59, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

@Bentvfan54321: NASCAR ≠ Open-wheel racing. In NASCAR, numbers are also teams, rather than just a number like in F1. Can you imagine how confusing a non-racing fan reading the table would be if a driver is alternating between a full-time ride and a start and park in a season like Matt DiBenedetto:

NASCAR Nationwide Series results
Year	Team	No.	Make	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22	23	24	25	26	27	28	29	30	31	32	NNSC	Pts
2014	Vision Racing	Dodge	DAY DNQ																																	21st	369
	The Motorsports Group	Chevy		PHO 38	LVS 38	BRI 39	CAL 37	TEX 39	DAR 38	RCH 37	TAL 39	IOW 25	CLT	DOV 39	MCH DNQ	ROA 11	KEN 40	DAY DNQ	NHA 40	CHI 34	IND 39	IOW 30	GLN 32	MOH 13	BRI 19	ATL 26	RCH 26	CHI 27	KEN 26	DOV 30	KAN 16	CLT 36	TEX 31	PHO 24	HOM 38

You can't exactly explain how DiBurrito when from getting so many DNFs to suddenly running at the finish (as a result of switching cars) when there's no numbers. In F1, sudden performance changes usually affect every driver in a team (barring some weird team orders or setups), while teammates in NASCAR can have more varying degrees of success. I personally wouldn't add them to the open-wheel tables. Zappa24Mati 04:16, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Bentvfan54321:I would suggest bringing up that question on WP:MOTOR and/or WP:F1. I am not a big follower of those series, but F1 just began assigning drivers a number to use throughout their career (according to List of Formula One driver numbers) in 2014 so adding it to the results tables is probably unnecessary. However, I am not sure about IndyCar. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 04:19, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

I Nascar the number is really significant. Number 43 is Richard Petty. Number 21 are the famous Wood Brothers racing team. And For me 89 is Morgan Shepherd. Troughout the History of Nascar the number of a driver has always been significant. This however is not the case in Formula 1. Before 1974 the starting number of the F1 drivers were giving at every Grand Prix by random draw. Only midway through The '73 season drivers had permanent numbers from race to race. These numbers however would change at the begining of a new season as the Driver's Champion would drive the #1 car and all the other numbers were based on the standings of the Constructors' Championship of the previous season. Only since 2014 the drivers have a permanent number they use troughout their Formula 1 career. So it would be pointless to add numbers in Formula 1 results tables as the numbers are simply not that significant as in Nascar.Jahn1234567890 (talk) 10:30, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you guys for your input. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 12:01, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

I agree with everyone. Sponsorship should rarely be used. Royalbroil 01:53, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Recently, an IP made this edit to Sam Hornish Jr. As the article is a Good Article and the edit was unsourced, I reverted it, but decided to research the matter. Well, as we all know, he's not racing this season, and this article seems to imply that Jeff Gordon wasn't the only one who hung up his helmet after Homestead this season, but it never used the "r word" explicitly (unless I overlooked it). Would anyone have a source that specifically says Hornish is either retired or simply a free agent? I'll ping @ZappaOMati: and @Z105space: since they're the two I seem to be in contact with the most these days. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 02:37, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

As far as I know Hornish is not (yet) retired. In a interview with indystar.com in January Hornish said this on his future: "I have lots of interests, but I don't have the desire for those things that I have for racing. So, I haven't found that (next thing) yet." So he kind a keeps it open. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 12:15, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

There's nothing I found which suggests that Hornish has retired nor do I know of any retirement annoucement from Hornish.Z105space (talk) 12:19, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

I can't find anything else either. This would be like saying Tanner Berryhill is retired because he has no ride. NFLisAwesome (ZappaOMati) 14:55, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Definitely not retired, he ran (and won) an Xfinity race as a sub-in a couple weeks ago.Theorycreation (talk) 16:28, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

@Theorycreation: Thanks, but this was mainly an issue before he even got the ride. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 19:47, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

I have uploaded images for all of the drivers. One driver missed the parade lap and was sent to the back of the field. Overall, these photos didn't turn out as good as last year. I have a new (and improved) camera but the telephoto lens is aging. Drivers with no articles:

• 
  Ryan Black, Jr.
  Ray Black, Jr.
• 
  Josh Bilicki

I'm working on the car images next. Most of the car pics were taken coming out of turn 6. The pics I took mid Turn 6 didn't turn out. The settings from last year didn't work well because this is a better camera. Glad I took the backup set with a generic "Sport" setting. I'll let everyone know when I get done. RoyalbroilAlt 17:38, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

@Royalbroil and RoyalbroilAlt: Well, Black definitely has an article. Only thing is that his name is Ray and not Ryan. :P NFLisAwesome (ZappaOMati) 17:43, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Maybe I'll get around to learning how to read someday, LOL. Thanks for the ping. I'll rename the image at Commons later when I'm in a more secure location. RoyalbroilAlt 15:06, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

(deindent) Car pictures:

• 
  Johnny Jackson (racing driver)

@Royalbroil and RoyalbroilAlt: He has a page as well. Unlike the Black case, you were closer this time around. He goes by John and not Johnny. NFLisAwesome (ZappaOMati) 17:42, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

He has Johnny on the car. I wonder if a redirect is needed. Thanks for your help. I will be uploading the cars by manufacturer to simplify uploading. I usually just add to the driver's page. I appreciate help with adding whatever is needed to the team pages. RoyalbroilAlt 17:15, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

I have uploaded photographs of all cars and drivers (except the one who missed driver's introductions). Feel free to add to team articles. RoyalbroilAlt 17:24, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

(deindent) I have uploaded photographs of all cars and drivers from the Road America Xfinity races. I don't like how someone went through and replaced many of the existing driver's images with ones that I took. Many of my images that I took this year were far inferior to the existing images. The lead image should be the best image that we have, no matter when it was taken. Newer is not better. The lead image should portrait the subject in a positive light, not like the image of Elliott Sadler (he has a goofy expression). An image with the driver who is looking at the camera with a smile and a wave is WAY better. I'll reconsider to upload only improvement images next year if that's what it takes. RoyalbroilAlt 17:26, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

I noticed yesterday that Infoboxes on the individual race pages (for example STP 500) are undergoing an ugly, disorganized, and seemingly unnecessary overhaul. Doctorindy↔Talk 15:15, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

@Doctorindy: Looks like a user's been changing {{Infobox NASCAR race}} to their own infobox even though we seem to be using {{Infobox motor race}} for NASCAR-related articles. On some pages it looks fine like Auto Club 400, but I'd prefer having an actual infobox than doing it "manually". NFLisAwesome (ZappaOMati) 16:56, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

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With the Chase now (sadly) a thing in the Xfinity and Truck Series, Nascar1996 brought up the idea of moving Chase for the Sprint Cup to a new title to accommodate the lower series as well back in January like "NASCAR Chase for the Championship" or something similar, but no one responded. Since I don't see there being much discussion there as a result, I figured we should have the discussion here where it's more likely to be visible. So, what do you guys think? Zappa24Mati 04:50, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree with the proposed change in article scope. I wikilinked the previous comment to the talk page thread. And I think it should be a stand alone-article but remain as it is linked in the NASCAR rules and regulations article. Royalbroil 14:10, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

As the first person to suggest the idea, I completely agree. I'd say "NASCAR Chase for the Championship" is a great name for the article. The article should be divided in sections by series, which will describe the history of the Chase in that series and list its champions. When this change is completed, I would also suggest removing some of the sections in the current article, such as 'Chase for the Sprint Cup tracks', 'Driver appearances in the Cup Chase', 'Non-Chase drivers to win a Chase race', and 'Non-Chase system champions', and possibly mention some of these in the history portion because it seems unnecessary to have these sections in the newer article. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 16:53, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

@Nascar1996 and Royalbroil: And just like that, the Chase name is dead and playoffs is now the new name. Does this mean we should move it to something like NASCAR playoffs? Zappa24Mati 23:41, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes it should be moved to that since it is now the official name. It also appears that some other sports uses that format as well(i.e. NFL playoffs and NBA playoffs). – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 00:09, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the article's name is moved to the official name (and a redirect is of course left from the previous name). Royalbroil 02:38, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Does the NASCAR Stock V6 Series (2nd league of Mexican NASCAR) still exist? I couldn't find anything about it. --Weldoffel (talk) 11:35, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

The series was abandoned after 2015 based on the statistics that are available at Driver Database. It was also renamed to the NASCAR Mexico Pro Series per 2015 points standings. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 14:40, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I have found this article in Spanish: [4]. My Spanish is pretty bad, but for me it looks like doesn't have a NASCAR "license" anymore. Can someone confirm this? --Weldoffel (talk) 15:25, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

With the new series name, I've been going around updating "Sprint Cup Series" to say "Monster Energy NASCAR Cup Series". However, having the title sponsor ahead of "NASCAR" brought up some concerns with consistency, especially in the results tables. It's weird to have "NASCAR" in the Cup results header, yet not do so for the lower series. We could add them, but it also doesn't make sense to add it when its parent section is named "NASCAR". I've heard rumors that NASCAR will rename the lower series accordingly (like Camping World NASCAR Truck Series), but in the event they don't, how should we maintain this consistency? Just say "Cup Series"? Zappa24Mati 05:30, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Would you please link example(s) of the scenario(s)? Royalbroil 13:40, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

I haven't changed the section headers yet since I plan to do so once the season gets a little closer, but hypothetically, it would look similar to [this](http://i.imgur.com/osNibTL.png). The Cup header, since NASCAR is in the middle of the name instead of at the beginning, would feature NASCAR in it although the other series do not. It's not really a concern about the length of the header in comparison to the others, but it's weird for just the Cup header to have "NASCAR" in it but the others don't. Zappa24Mati 18:38, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

The new series name also changes the abbreviation we use in the result template. I think we have two options here:

1st Option

MENCC

2nd Option

MNCC

Now that the main Cup Series sponsor has two names (Monster Energy) rather than one in the past (Winston, Nextel and Sprint) we could go for the first option and add ME to the abbreviation existing wich would make 'MENCC'. We could also go for the second option and leave the E of energy out of the abbreviation wich would make MNCC. Personally I am tending towords the second option as I would like to keep it simple but that just a personal. I would like to hear what you guys think. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 15:11, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

@Jahn1234567890: Personally, I'd go with the first option. It's longer, but the Camping World Truck Series one uses NCWTC. Just for the sake of consistency, it'd probably make more sense to use the two-word sponsor. Zappa24Mati 21:56, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati: You're right, I forgot about that. I'm fine with both but I'll settle for the first option. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 23:02, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

I prefer the first option for the sake of consistency, too. Royalbroil 02:41, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

@Jahn1234567890 and Royalbroil: Maybe I'm just being too pedantic, but I'm pretty iffy on how the headers look now. The Cup Series header is the only one with "NASCAR" in it, which kills the consistency with the other series. Personally, I wouldn't mind changing it to say "Monster Energy Cup Series" (removing "NASCAR") to keep it consistent with "Xfinity Series" and "Camping World Truck Series". What do you guys think? Zappa24Mati 05:13, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree. I've noticed that as well. It's never a bad thing to be consistent. Not only with the other Series but also with the Cup Series names from the past. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 10:11, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

@Jahn1234567890, Royalbroil, and ZappaOMati: I'd say "Monster Energy Cup Series" is fine since we have a "NASCAR" header already. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 13:39, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Sounds good. I prefer consistency. Royalbroil 02:48, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Since NASCAR as of this season, is no longer counting the most laps led as a statistic, would it be more useful to include stage winners instead?Gaeaman787 (talk) 02:37, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't think we should remove the most laps led statistic as a whole (especially considering how they're pretty much ingrained into NASCAR results tables). Maybe we could take a page from the season articles and find a way to include both of them? Like * for most laps led and ¹ / ² for stage winners? Zappa24Mati 03:47, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I consider NASCAR my favorite sport, far and away. I created my Wikipedia account to clean up Jayski's Silly Season Site, and have created a lot of articles, mostly on drivers. As I am still relatively new to Wikipedia (fourteen months), I still don't know how to do the results tables. A lot of times, ZappaOMati or some other user has put them in for me, but some pages like Nathan Buttke (Xfinity only) and Fred Harb are still not done. I know old Cup drivers aren't the easiest to do, but I've seen it done. As to why I'm confused, I couldn't get the table to go correctly in visual mode and the formatting in source mode was too confusing. Suggestions? As one last note, I'm seeing that Josh Bilicki's early-season withdrawals for Obaika aren't showing up. Thanks a lot!Willsome429 (talk) 17:31, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

@Willsome429: Glad to see you're interested in helping out with the results tables! I'm not sure how to edit the tables in visual mode, but here's a quick crash course in source mode. It might seem confusing at first, but it becomes easy once you get the hang of it.

When there's a driver who's lacking a results table, I head to my sandbox, where there is a base template. You copy/paste the "base" of the series that you are trying to add into the driver's article (make sure to include the "Motorsports career results" header if one does not already exist). After that, copy the seasons you want to add. When you look underneath the year, there will be three exclamation marks, which serve as the Team, No., and Manufacturer column. Fill those in accordingly.

For the results themselves, they will be in a link like so: [[2017 Daytona 500|DAY]]. Once you get the result, put them in style="background:#COLOR;"| [[2017 Daytona 500]]. The color to use can be found in the results legend. On the other side of the link, you would add <br><small></small>, placing the finishing result in between the <small></small>. After a while, it becomes pretty easy to figure out. Zappa24Mati 03:15, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati: Thanks! I tried your advice on Michael Self with a couple difficulties. One was that the table is in the right place in source but not visual. The other was that I could not figure out how to switch car numbers between races. Willsome429 (talk) 17:37, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

@Willsome429: If you need to add different nubers, teams and cars to a season you need to add rowspan=| to the table. You also need |} to close the table. Perhaps it is handy to study the changes I made to your edit in order to figure this out. Hope this helps you out. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 17:55, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

@Willsome429: I'm a bit late to the party but I can't really think of anything else to add. Simply put, the best way for you to get better is to practice. Maybe try constructing a table in your sandbox first. Once you have the right formatting, you're good to go! --Bcschneider53 (talk) 18:45, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Looks like race truck series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Solar_350 is renamed to Las Vegas 350 from this page. http://www.nascar.com/en_us/nascar-tracks/las-vegas-motor-speedway.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shrikantp (talk • contribs) 00:20, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

An RFC has recently been started regarding a potential change to the notability guidelines for sportspeople. Please join in the conversation. Thank you. Primefac (talk) 23:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

A new user has edited several NASCAR race articles (Example: Coke Zero 400#Live flag-to-flag coverage) at the television coverage tables, and replaced the network names with network logos. The logos were uploaded to Wikimedia Commons. For three reasons I believe that this is in violation of Wiki's copyright policy. The logos were uploaded to Commons, which I believe is in violation of policy in itself (logos are supposed to be uploaded to Wikipedia, not Commons). Furthermore, they were uploaded without any proper licensing. They were all claimed to be "own work," which is a total farce. I believe that falls under Commons:License laundering. In addition, to use a logo on an article, a free-use claim has to be provided, and one free-use claim allows only one appearance of the logo on the article (right now they are showing multiple copies of them). I bring this to attention because I'm not entirely sure of the proper steps to take for speedy deletion, and others more knowledgeable with such tasks might be able to take a look at this case. Doctorindy↔Talk 13:26, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Documenting the history of the coverage of the event is a bit WP:UNDUE to the topic in the first place? How does a table detailing the history of broadcasters (without describing the broadcast itself) assist in the understanding of the topic? --Falcadore (talk) 15:51, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

The issue at hand is about potential copyright violations, that are spreading across numerous Cup Series race articles. Not WP:IDL. Doctorindy↔Talk 13:18, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

There's another editor (not sure if the same person under an IP or not) who's been doing some logo overkill on certain race articles. I'd keep an eye out for them as well. Zappa24Mati 23:25, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Among other things, it also appears to be in violation of WP:MOSICON. And it is not just TV tables anymore, as mentioned, it series and track logos. So everyone knows in general, those icons/logos can not be used on those articles unless an additional Free Use rationale has been created for EACH use. Doctorindy↔Talk 13:26, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

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I went to the Xfinity Series race at Road America. I have images of the whole field of drivers (except Sheldon Creed but I had placed a photograph of him from Crandon's off-road races from a few years ago). I'll upload the images that improve but I won't bother with the whole field. Last year I uploaded all images and only replaced when it was an improvement. But then someone went and used all images and I don't want to be using inferior images just because they are newer. Looks like Ernie Francis, Jr. is the only driver without an article. He won the Trans Am TA class race earlier in the day (I'll upload that image too). He was TA4 (lowest class of Trans Am cars) winner for the last 3 years at the track. RoyalbroilAlt 17:51, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

• 
  Ernie Francis, Jr.
• 
  Stephen Young (racing driver)
• 
  road course ringer Tim Cowen from 2015. He now has 10 NASCAR starts

• 
  Ernie Francis, Jr.
• 
  Stephen Young (racing driver)

Mostly to avoid turning this into an edit war, but Jeff Gordon and Matt Kenseth have been changed from the usual hidden tables we're accustomed to so they would comply with MOS:SCROLL. The main problem with this is that the tables now don't exactly look too attractive because of just how large they are (since 36-race seasons make for some pretty giant tables). Since I'm not too keen on changing every driver table to fit the MOS (especially this far into the season), I was wondering if we can figure something out. Zappa⚡Mati 03:08, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati: I went to go revert them back...then I saw who made the edits in the first place. The first guy with over 1 million career edits certainly knows his stuff. I'm not opposed to non-collapsed tables as long as they maintain the size they once were (I agree, 36-race seasons make the tables far too big). --Bcschneider53 (talk) 12:43, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

@Bcschneider53: After removing the collapsed parameter from the table (but keeping the "font-size:75%" portion to keep it from looking too large), it doesn't look too bad in my opinion. I went ahead and readded the font size part to the Gordon and Kenseth tables, and they look pretty decent (or at least better than last night). NFLisAwesome (ZappaOMati) 15:16, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

@Bcschneider53: If there aren't any objections, I can get started on removing the collapsible option for other drivers as well, though we can also bring in @Jahn1234567890: for his input before we do anything. Zappa⚡Mati 03:01, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati: I'll take care of Hornish now, since he's a GA. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 03:07, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati: @Bcschneider53: I'm fine with these changes. The only thing that changes is the option to hide/show the result table. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 12:52, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

• And having just discovered this after popping back in for the first time in awhile...this should probably be a case where WP:IAR is applied to WP:MOSSCROLL, as it makes the pages to where even on my 1440-wide monitor it requires side-scrolling which is a horrible thing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:08, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

• @The Bushranger: But is collapsing them again the answer? Either way, when a reader opens the table, they'll still have to side-scroll to view all the results... --Bcschneider53 (talk) 00:11, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

• That's true, but it doesn't have a scrollbar at the bottom of the browser while reading through the entire rest of the page. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:12, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Just looking through the edit history on C. J. Faison, and in early February an IP address added extensive info about his business career while minorly tweaking his racing career. The edits were reverted because there were no citations. However, in the edit summaries the IP address used first person pronouns like "I" and claimed that Faison was out of racing and into his dad's auto auction business back home in Delaware. I'm unsure of how to address this, as the IP address has been dormant since February and there's an obvious COI problem. Is there a way for him to get content on without having a COI problem? Willsome429 (talk) 19:32, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

• The Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide is a good start. (As an aside, I was interested to note Brendangaughan appearing! His edits were constructive so I just gave the "welcome, here's our COI guidelines" tag.) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:49, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

{{Petty family}} has been nominated for deletion. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:26, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Should two templates exist for the season link shortcuts ({{Sprint Cup}} and {{Monster Energy NASCAR Cup}})? Both are used on {{NASCAR Sprint Cup Champions}}, which is where most of the transclusions originate for both templates. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 06:01, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

An editor recently moved a lot of race and other pages as part of an odd page-moving spree. The list may need to be checked out to see what, if any, damage has been done. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:00, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

@The Bushranger: Looks like the same user also tinkered with a lot of the infoboxes in the race articles, so they no longer use {{Infobox motor race}} and instead have some sort of original infobox. Zappa⚡Mati 19:12, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Also, I just stumbled across {{Infobox NASCAR Race}}, which the same user created even though there was a prior-existing template that was not only unused, but was salted. Looks like we might have our work cut out for us in trying to clean this up if we decide to revert back to using {{Infobox motor race}}. Zappa⚡Mati 19:19, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

...ai yi yi. Yeah, reverting the Generic Infobox back to IMR is better. I'll nuke that (thankfully unused) salt-evading infobox. Funny, looking at the creator of that, I see some curious similarities to our current guest... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:05, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

It's a good thing the season's over so there's time to go back and revert everything back to normal. I just hope the defunct races aren't affected as well or we're going to be in for a long day. Zappa⚡Mati 03:05, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Well, it didn't take long for me to hit a snag regarding the original topic of page moves. Kansas 400 redirects to Kansas 400 (Kansas) despite being the only Kansas 400 article on Wikipedia and I can't move it over the RD. @The Bushranger:, want to tackle that? Zappa⚡Mati 03:29, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

 Done How that was considered a good idea by anyone, I don't know. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:33, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Sweet, thanks. While we're on that topic, is there any consensus on what to name race articles with names that end with "presented by [SPONSOR]"? The user in question moved pages like Quaker State 400 to Quaker State 400 presented by Advanced Auto Parts and Coke Zero 400 to Coke Zero 400 powered by Coca-Cola. While they're the official race names and are represented in the logos, it seems awfully excessive to me, especially since "Apache Warrior 400 presented by Lucas Oil" was moved to simply "Apache Warrior 400" for the Dover playoff race. Zappa⚡Mati 03:38, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

I can see arguments both ways. Note that "...presented by Craftsman" was removed from the 1995 SuperTruck Series page title (wrongly, IMHO, but not a hill to die upon) back when there was the kerfuffle about removing "...season" from season pages. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:39, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

True, though I would like to see some article consistency, especially considering how many articles are already linking to their original names rather than this sudden "new" one. Speaking of race names, looks like Dover 400 (playoff race) is another one that should be addressed by fixing it to Dover 400. Zappa⚡Mati 03:50, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

 Done - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:38, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

I want to say that a number of years ago, a consensus was made that the sponsor name would be the article title (not made up generic names), but generally the "presented by..." part would be omitted from the article title (and indicated only in the bolded first sentence). I'm more inclined to go with the official name of the race as the article title, even if it is somewhat lengthy. One thing I do not support is moving race articles to made up or long-since abandoned generic names, just to do so. I say leave it as it is until a new sponsor is officially announced. Doctorindy↔Talk 19:51, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Unrelated to the ongoing topic but still related to a page move: should series articles have "NASCAR" in them? I know Monster Energy NASCAR Cup Series has it since NASCAR moved "NASCAR" between the sponsor and series name for some reason, but it's not the case for the Truck and Xfinity Series. Looking at the move log, the Truck page had been moved to NASCAR Camping World Truck Series, hence my wondering (though the Xfinity page is still without it). If we decide to add it, it's going to take quite some work to change the links accordingly. Zappa⚡Mati 04:03, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

My instinct would be "yes", but the follow-up instinct is "there will be drama from MOSticklers". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:41, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Well, I tried to be bold and move Xfinity Series to NASCAR Xfinity Series, but I guess I need a sysop to do that. I'm fine with adding "NASCAR" to the series titles for consistency, though I don't know if we should follow through for good or if we should have some more discussion beforehand. Zappa⚡Mati 02:01, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and moved it, so that all three have the sanction name in them now. the MENCS (and did anybody bother checking the initialism on that before stamping it approved?) sets a precedent for the other two.... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:22, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Alrighty then. Now to get started on fixing the links like in the templates accordingly. Doesn't look like the same problem happens in the feeder series, so I thought I'd go ahead and move those for consistency as well. I still have no clue whose idea it was to move "NASCAR" between Monster Energy and Cup Series, though; if you're going to do something like that, at least change it for the other series as well to keep it truly consistent instead of this "one series at a time" rebrand that they've been doing lately (looking at you, series and NASCAR logos...). Zappa⚡Mati 02:30, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, but related to the page moves, this same guy moved the Las Vegas' Truck Series race (which was always held in the fall) to: Las Vegas Spring Race and created another article for the fall race. But would not it make more sense to keep it as the fall race and create, or in the case move the new article to the spring race? Lukscheese (talk) 01:39, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Well, that'd depend: which race are NASCAR and LVMS appending the race history to? It wouldn't be the first time a long-standing race was moved to a different date and "replaced" by a new one on the prior date... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:22, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

I know, like sponsorship or even mileage reasons...but this case is more complicated because this year's race had no sponsor and it's too early to know about future sponsorship or even mileage...I looked for which race belongs the history and found nothing about...so all we have to do is wait and leave it the way it is for now, right? Lukscheese (talk) 03:29, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

I was surprised to find no article for the track which was one of the major hubs for NASCAR's first 2 decades - and their promoter was important in NASCAR's formation. The article could probably be expanded greatly if anyone has good NASCAR book sources. Online content is surprisingly weak but I didn't check google books very much. It would be an excellent DYK candidate if anyone wants to add content and nominate it. Royalbroil 13:43, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Once again, an unregistered and registered editor keeps changing the List of Daytona 500 broadcasters page to indicate the TV rights rotate between FOX and NBC. This is an infuriating lie, and is beginning to borderline on vandalism. I have reverted it multiple times. Reliable sources are already cited in the article which clearly state FOX has exclusive rights of the first half of season including the Daytona 500 through 2024. Doctorindy↔Talk 17:43, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I have warned one of them – Huyandrew99 (talk · contribs) – for his rash of reverts, along with pinging them to allow them to explain here why they are adding such content without sources in the first place. Zappa24Mati 00:14, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Noted. That editor has also been observed doing the same disruptive editing at Coke Zero 400, and quite possibly in the past at Brickyard 400. All of that editor's contributions, if they are not properly cited, should be generally be considered suspect. Doctorindy↔Talk 02:51, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Looks like he's been blocked for a week for sockpuppetry. So while we won't be getting a response from that account in particular, we should be on the lookout for any signs of socks. Zappa24Mati 02:59, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

On his first day back from being blocked, Huyandrew99 (talk · contribs) is already back to making unsourced edits. See Brickyard 400. Doctorindy↔Talk 13:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@Doctorindy: It's happening again, though under an IP this time (72.220.193.189). Zappa24Mati 00:38, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Yet again it has happened on an IP (2600:8801:9304:5600:6C69:B56E:27D4:12FE). I advise everyone to keep an eye on the race articles. Zappa24Mati 03:35, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

The motivations are perhaps exposed now. A few of those edits went so far as to include a bizarre CALL for fans to demand that NBC to take over. Quote: (The Entire Daytona Speedweeks Can Be Covered on NBC Sports Instead of Fox Next Year!!! Call NBC Sports at: 1 (203) 356-7000 now to get nbc to cover the 60th daytona 500!!!) That's a clear and plain violation of WP:SOAP. If it's the same vandal all along, which it probably is, either it's a elaborate ruse, or a long, deep case of wishful thinking. Doctorindy↔Talk 15:57, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Geolocate says both IPs are from San Diego, so it's not too far-fetched to assume they're the same person. NFLisAwesome (ZappaOMati) 16:02, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

There has begun yet another rash of disruptive edits and "revert wars" involving Huyandrew99 (talk · contribs). Doctorindy↔Talk 13:31, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

It's beyond vandalism now. LINK The account has been blocked. This is his latest reason: "What i want for you all people is to have the Daytona 500 be On NBC Next Year Due to adam west's death on june 9th, 2017.!!" Doctorindy↔Talk 12:46, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

This guy just doesn't give up, does he? He's doing it again from an IP (2600:8801:9304:5600:14C6:3DBA:2F4C:B382). Zappa24Mati 00:36, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Back yet again. (2600:8801:9304:5600:A997:4E65:26FF:3225). Identified as vandalism, all edits reverted. Doctorindy↔Talk 19:22, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Geolocate says it's him again. Two months ago, I opened an SPI at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Huyandrew99 so we can report any obvious cases there for tabbing. Zappa⚡Mati 01:25, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

He vandalizes, I revert, he un-reverts, I revert again. It's a constant battle. Doctorindy↔Talk 00:46, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

It was a pretty clear case of disruptive editing using several anonymous accounts, so I semi-protected the page for 6 months. Ping me if the disruption starts back up in May. Royalbroil 03:45, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

@Royalbroil: While it's not at the 500 broadcasters page, it looks like he's found another page to target at NASCAR on television and radio. Zappa⚡Mati 02:40, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

 1.75x amplified ultimate quack of ultimate destiny, protected that page for a month. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:29, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Ha Ha. Thanks Bushranger for silencing the ducks. Royalbroil 13:09, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

@Royalbroil and The Bushranger: This guy really doesn't give up, does he? Now he's back as Theredmaskedgoat (talk · contribs) and continuing his behavior (along with some sort of attempted soapboxing in the form of edit requests here and here). Heck, he even outed himself as the original person on his userpage. I haven't seen a duck this obvious since I went to Anaheim. God, I really want the 2018 Daytona 500 to arrive already so this guy can finally stop this. Zappa⚡Mati 03:57, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

I haven't reviewed this contributor's edits, but the account can be blocked if it's a Wikipedia:Vandalism-only account. Royalbroil 05:01, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

I took a look, and accordingly, he's now blocked for clearly not being here to contribute to the encyclopedia. The bookies are now offering odds on his sockpuppeting. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:56, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@ZappaOMati and The Bushranger: I'm done. Going to bed to get away from this nonsense. I think it's likely keeps it up under this IP address, and I'm setting the over under on "Please call to get the Daytona 500 moved to NBC" sockpuppet accounts at 11.5. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 06:16, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Supreme facepalm of destiny Protected the Clash, Duel, and Template:NASCAR on NBC until the start times of the races (for the latter, the 500), as there haven't been productive IP edits on those since July or so. Tossed shorter protections on some of the others such as 2018 Daytona 500 for a week for now in hopes he gets bored. Did not protect 2018 MENCS though as there's been productive IP/new user edits recently, so keep an eye on that one. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:33, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

@The Bushranger: In the words of Paul Joseph Watson, "imagine my shock." --Bcschneider53 (talk) 03:37, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

"#OperationDefeatMartinTruexJr"? So his reasoning for wanting NBC to air the 500 went from because Adam West died to because he doesn't like Truex? Zappa⚡Mati 03:43, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps. Who knows. It probably doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. We're in this fight for the long haul. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 03:50, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately. The 2018 500 cannot come soon enough so this guy can finally shut up about this, unless he suddenly decides to take to the 2019 500 page as well. Zappa⚡Mati 03:57, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

"I am shocked, shocked..." and have added 2018 Daytona 500 to the list of pages protected until the start time of the race. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:18, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

@The Bushranger and ZappaOMati: Well what do you know? The same guy who claims Kyle Busch "helped" Truex win the championship (yeah, right) and continues to add that claim to the Furniture Row Racing page is the same guy who commenced #OperationDefeatMartinTruexJr...which I guess starts with NBC airing the 2018 Daytona 500...which came about from Adam West's death? How delightful. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 00:13, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

...is it overly snarky of me to go "...that explains a lot"? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:19, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

One of them's back. Same guy who made an edit to FRR's page on December 1. Edit summary of "Truex will lose in 37 days." --Bcschneider53 (talk) 22:21, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

And hammered. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:22, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi! Please tell me why are you include car numbers into the result tables? How the number affect racing results? How it is encyclopedic? It is just WP:Trivia. Cheers Corvus tristis (talk) 17:21, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

@Corvus tristis: As I previously stated, a number is more closely tied to a driver in NASCAR than in other forms of motorsport. Dale Earnhardt, for example, is synonymous with the number three, and announcers will often times use numbers to identify drivers for their viewers (e.g. "the 48 car is running very strong up in third place"). Lewis Hamilton, on the other hand, is rarely (if ever) referred to as "car 44." Furthermore, NASCAR's Owners' Championship is unlike Formula One's Constructors' Championship in that every car (and thus every number) receives owners' points individually. While it is more common in the Xfinity Series than at the top level, teams may use multiple drivers for the same car number throughout the season in an effort to give them the best chance to win the championship. Hope this helps. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 17:47, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for explanation. I partly understand your point and why numbers are important for Owners' championship. But I removed numbers from the drivers' articles not from the owners'. And I still don't understand why you can't just refer to the number in the text of the article and in the infobox where it will be more relevant? The tables even without numbers are way too wide. Corvus tristis (talk) 18:02, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

@Corvus tristis: @Bcschneider53: I would argue that the number in NASCAR/ARCA is even more of an identifier than team and manufacturer. It is more prominently displayed on the car for casual fans to see than the manufacturer or team, contrary to other forms of motorsport. Especially with the advent of Rick Allen calling Cup races ("in to the wall goes the forty-eight!"), the number has become the main calling card for a driver besides his/her/its/whatever pronoun they prefer name. On the issue that the tables are too wide, I don't think eliminating the number table will honestly do much. That's an issue to take up with the sanctioning body and the number of races they have. Just my two cents, take it as you will. Willsome429 (talk) 18:53, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, now it is more clear for me. I am agree with your point. Corvus tristis (talk) 19:10, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Well put. The number is very closely identified to many drivers and closely to the teams. Royalbroil 02:38, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

It's different with every series. I think it works best if you have a guideline for different racing series because what works for F1 result tables may not necessarily work for Nascar result tables. We show chassis stats in F1 result tables because it is relevant as every team (constructor) builds its own chassis every year. In Nascar it's not that relevant as teams use a car provided by one of the three manufacturers. So we simply refer to one of those manufacturers in the result tables. It's the same with the starting numbers. Like said here above, in Nascar the numbers are very important so we show them in result tables. In F1 it's not that relevant so we don't show them in driver or constructor result tables. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 13:49, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Hey guys! I'm trying to make time sometime soon to make more NASCAR userboxes so that we can move past (with no disrespect to) Casey Atwood and Ron Hornaday Jr. If any of you guys have specific requests, ping me below or leave a message on my talk page. Congrats, Clint! Willsome429 (talk) 23:52, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Just a couple things with results tables... for one, I noticed that somebody added CARS Tour results to the Josh Berry page. Should we put these results on all CARS Tour drivers, or not? I would say no, just because although it is one of the top asphalt late model series, it just doesn't have enough notability yet. Also, with the new Racing-Reference updates to the Euro and Mexico series, I'll work on adding those results to the pages that need it. Regards, Willsome429 (talk) 13:29, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

@Willsome429: I agree. I think the CARS Racing Tour series is not notable enough for result tables. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 13:39, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

My comment is No to CARS, ARCA Midwest Tour, and probably even the NASCAR East & West Tours. ARCA, Euro, Mexico, CASCAR/Pinty's, and the Big 3 series are Yes. That is for the Stock Car tours. Additional ones like IndyCar, F1, etc. also Yes. Royalbroil 00:06, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Clarified on 1973 Capital City 500.Kpgjhpjm (talk) 04:20, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I have updated and fixed some articles in the watchlist . I have also flagged a few more issues. For them see my contribs . Regards , Kpgjhpjm (talk) 05:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.

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On April 8th, 2018, an RfC ("Request for comment") proposal was made to eliminate all portals and the portal namespace. On April 17th, the Portals WikiProject was rebooted to handle the revitalization of the portal system. On May 12th, the RfC was closed with the result to keep portals, by a margin of about 2 to 1 in favor of keeping portals.

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Hello! I’m joining your wiki project. Cowboysfan3214 (talk) 00:52, 23 June 2018 (UTC) @Cowboysfan3214: Welcome to the WikiProject ! Kpgjhpjm 15:11, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi WikiProject NASCAR. Is there any reason why the 2018 NASCAR drivers' results tables don't show their current championship positions and points totals (e.g. in Kyle_Busch#Monster_Energy_Cup_Series, the "MENCC" and "Pts" columns both show "-*" for 2018). Obviously the 2018 season is still in progress, but for most other racing series, the drivers' current championship positions and points totals are listed in their results tables and updated as the season progresses. DH85868993 (talk) 12:19, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@DH85868993: Actually , That is the points and position at the end of the season . Kpgjhpjm 15:17, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@DH85868993: If I had to guess, there are just so many drivers (three national series, each of which feature as many as 32–40 drivers per race, along with the feeder series) whose tables would have to be updated on a weekly basis that it'd just be too much of a hassle to do with each race. Doesn't help that there are also much more part-time and one-off drivers than in other series who would see their standings drop with every race they don't enter. As such, it's easier to just update everyone at the end of the year. Zappa⚡Mati 17:20, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@DH85868993: Personaly, I work with the lower series, where sometimes (okay, most times) point standings aren't avialible until a day or two after the race. I find it cumbersome to go and fill in results and go back a day, two or three later to add in points and results. Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 19:11, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough. If the championship positions/points totals aren't going to be updated during the season, then you could probably remove the asterisks in those columns (in the results tables for other series, the asterisks are used to indicate that the season is still in progress and that the championship positions/points totals aren't the final values). Especially since an asterisk is already used to indicate "most laps led" in some NASCAR results tables. And/or update the column headings to indicate that they are the final championship positions/points totals. Regards. DH85868993 (talk) 20:49, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Short track motor racing. The discussion recently opened. Royalbroil 00:05, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

I have uploaded images of all of the cars in the field as displayed before the race (at this Commons category). I took closeup images of many drivers too. So if you're writing an article in the future for a new NASCAR driver, this is a good source to find an image of the driver. It was a neat experience. I said "Hi" to most of the drivers and I told them that I hope they have a fun time. The longest lines were for 2 beautiful women: Toni Breidinger and in-state driver Natalie Decker had the longest. I was very surprised to see short lines for the big prospects at the front of the field. They were happy to pose for a picture beside the car with the grandstands in the background. Royalbroil 02:24, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

@Royalbroil: Did you tell them it was for Wikipedia or not? Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 03:05, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

I asked everyone almost for permission to take their photograph. I didn't specify Wikipedia and don't feel that I need to per [5]. It is a public place and a public setting. The race track announced a driver's meet and greet, then opened their gate onto the racing surface. While I didn't need to ask permission to take photographs, I did anyhow (for the most part) and the drivers (by complying / posing beside their car) agreed to be on the photograph. Royalbroil 00:26, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Having revisited this discussion on the arrangement of the NASCAR fatalities list, I no longer believe there should be an article devoted to listing all the fatalities that have occurred in events sanctioned by a particular organization.

Lists of motorsport fatalities usually show the respective deaths having occurred at a particular track, in a particular event, or in a particular series. Deaths could also be compiled based on a particular type of vehicle being used, such as midget car, sprint car, sports car, touring car, stock car, or truck. But a list of fatalities based on a common sanctioning body is not sought after in my opinion.

Besides, it is sometimes unclear whether an event has been sanctioned by NASCAR and therefore difficult to decide whether a fatality that has happened at such an event should be added to the list.

That's why I suggest moving the page List of NASCAR fatalities to List of NASCAR Cup Series fatalities and removing from the page the fatalities that have occurred in other series. What do you think?--Fluidfellow (talk) 19:33, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

This has been bothering me for some time but I neglected to bring it up before. I think we should get rid of the achievement and award section in the driver infoboxes. It basically fills the infobox with a whole lot of trivia/info that is already listed in the article or at the bottom of the page where it is listed very clear. I think that is more than sufficient. I also don't see how to height and weight of the drivers is of encyclopedic value. For example; The infobox of Kyle Busch looks very messy and unclear.

I personally like the display of the F1 driver infoboxes. The infobox of Lewis Hamilton looks very neat and tidy and all the achievements and awards are listed is an achievements section at the bottom of the page. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 15:21, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

I like those sections, as long as they're filled with important achievements. I don't like height and weight but the rest of the awards/achievements are relevant for Kyle Busch. Infoboxes are an excellent quick summary of a person. Royalbroil 10:46, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Some of those achievements are relevant, but I don't see why all those achievements should be listed in the infobox when they are already listed in the article's text and/or at the bottom of the page. I feel like this is just a bit much. An infobox should not contain very detailed statistics. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 14:41, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I recently nominated Amber Balcaen for deletion. Feel free to weigh in on the debate here. Any discussion is greatly appreciated! Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 20:06, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

So I came across this article today from NBC Sports and it reminded me: since we've always noted qualifying substitutions in results tables, I've always thought we should include relief drivers as well, perhaps even more so than qualifying changes considering they drove the cars during the race. Dale Jr. at Texas in '07 aside, some other obvious examples would be the 2007 AT&T 250 in which Aric Almirola "won" the race while absent from the track (though Denny Hamlin was in his car), as well as Erik Jones making his unofficial Cup debut in relief of Hamlin in 2015, and Ty Dillon taking over for Tony Stewart in the spring Talladega race in 2016. There are undoubtedly others. Before adding to the tables, however, I wanted to get some input from you all. I'll ping Jahn1234567890, ZappaOMati, and Willsome429 as they are the ones who seem to work with the tables most these days. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 19:17, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

The problem with this is that back in they day it was very normal to be relieved in a race. For example Dick May was everybody's favorite relief driver because he didn't tear up equipment. So at some races May relieved more than one driver. At the 1975 Mason-Dixon 500 he drove five cars in one race. If we would add those stats it could make some result tables very messy. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 19:36, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

I see your point, but I feel as if those old Grand National tables are already messy by default because of how long the seasons were and how many cars they drove in so much as a single season. I still think it would be nice if we noted relief appearances to give those drivers credit. But let's see what others say. If it turns out I'm the only one that thinks that way, I won't be offended and will happily defer. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 21:54, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't really have a side in this discussion, but I think it'd be a reasonable compromise to at least note if a driver replaced another mid-race but not list where they finished in their new car. For example, for Hamlin and the 2007 AT&T 250, we leave that cell in his results table empty since he's not listed in any official record as the winner, but have a symbol of sort like † or ‡ and note "Replaced Aric Almirola mid-race and won." at the bottom. Zappa⚡Mati 16:49, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

I am in agreeable with what Zappa said, but only after it became uncommon to have relief drivers. Not exactly sure when that would be but it is important because as previously mentioned, lots of early relief efforts are non-notable. Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 17:33, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Bcschneider53, ZappaOMati, Willsome429 I don't see what this adds to the results tables. It only makes the tables look messy. I feel like we can only add a certain amount of information in these result tables and still have them look nice and clear. Just look at Ty Dillon's result table. He now has two "results" in one cell at the 2016 GEICO 500. I feel like it's either one or the other. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 16:59, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

@Jahn1234567890: Dillon's case is unique because he both qualified for Stewart and replaced him mid-race. If it's one or the other, then I would argue relief appearances would actually perhaps be more noteworthy (and thus worth noting in the tables) since they pertain to the actual race itself rather than a qualifying session. F1 notes Friday test drivers who participate in FP1, so I don't see why we shouldn't note qualifying subs as well. Their records for shared drivers are also noted, though due to 1950s F1 rules, it's simple to note them in the tables. While NASCAR rules are different and thus require a separate entry in the cells, I still think the more modern ones in particular are worth mentioning. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 17:48, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

The reason it is noted in F1 is because a driver got credit for their shared drive. For example; Luigi Fagioli and Juan Manuel Fangio both received 4 points for their shared win at the 1951 French Grand Prix. In Nascar this is not the case. If you replace a driver midrace you get no credit whatsoever. The driver who started the race gets credit for all the driver that took over does. This is not the case if you qualify for a driver. If you qualify on the pole you still get the credit for that pole positon. (Drew Herring, Aric Almirola, Neil Bonnett, Jimmy Hensley and may more have done this.) I'm not saying that relief driver info is irrelevant, but I don't think we should list this in result tables. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 18:16, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I understand the argument, but something just doesn't sit right with me if Denny Hamlin's table his completely empty for a race he literally won (okay, not really, but he was driving the car when he came across the line in first place). If it's not irrelevant (and obviously, I'm with you on that), then it should be mentioned somewhere. Where else would we put it that makes the relief effort clear in a summary of the driver's season? --Bcschneider53 (talk) 22:39, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I think mentioning it in a summary of the driver's season is sufficient. It's not like it has be added to the result table. Mentioning it in on the drivers page and on the race report (like is done on this page) should be sufficient. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 23:11, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Just for clarity, three plus years ago (my, how time flies), I brought this up on your talk page and you said this was "not a bad idea" because "It gives a driver credit for their hard work." I'm just curious as to why your stance has shifted over time; of course, there's nothing wrong with that, I had just recalled that you were open to the idea a while back. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 00:20, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Fair point. Reading my comment I'm not sure. I didn't really elaborate on it that much and I don't remember what my chain of thought was back then. Like I said before, it's not that the relief driver info is irrelevant, but I don't think we should list this in result tables. People who work (or have worked) on these tables regularly shall have no problem with understanding what is meant with the note in the Xfinity table of Denny Hamlin. But this isn't the case for people who casually visit these pages. Wiki is an encyclopedia. Whe shouldn't make things to complicated. Like I elaborated before, I think it is easier to just add a note on the race page itself and in the season summary of the driver page. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 01:13, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

With all due respect, I fail to see the complicated aspect of this. Maybe it's just the fact that I'm a fan of the sport (who also happens to have a featured article on the race in question), but to me, the note in the Hamlin table is pretty clear: he himself did not get any credit for the race result (hence why no position is given), but he did participate in the race by replacing Almirola in the No. 20 Joe Gibbs Racing Chevrolet. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 05:22, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Here are my main objections: Adding another row to note Earnhardt Jr. relieved Kyle Busch makes his "clean" table messy. Adding two "results" in one table cell like is done with Ty Dillon makes things unclear and it looks horrible. Result tables were not intended to contain to detailed information. So if we would add a note because a driver relieved another, it should be a simple one; Relieved "name of driver" (the same as we do when a driver qualified a car)

NASCAR Sprint Cup Series results
Year	Team	No.	Make	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22	23	24	25	26	27	28	29	30	31	32	33	34	35	36	NSCC	Pts
A	Joe Gibbs Racing	11	Toyota	DAY	ATL	LVS	PHO	CAL	MAR	TEX	BRI RL†	RCH	TAL	KAN	CLT	DOV	POC	MCH	SON	DAY	KEN	NHA	IND	POC	GLN	MCH	BRI	DAR	RCH	CHI	NHA	DOV	CLT	KAN	TAL	MAR	TEX	PHO	HOM
† - Relieved Denny Hamlin
B	Stewart-Haas Racing	14	Chevy	DAY	ATL	LVS	PHO	CAL	MAR	TEX	BRI	RCH	TAL QL†	KAN	DOV	CLT	POC	MCH	SON	DAY	KEN	NHA	IND	POC	GLN	BRI	MCH	DAR	RCH	CHI	NHA	DOV	CLT	KAN	TAL	MAR	TEX	PHO	HOM	53rd	01
† - Qualified for, and relieved Tony Stewart
C	Dale Earnhardt, Inc.	8	Chevy	DAY 32	CAL 40	LVS 11	ATL 14	BRI 7	MAR 5	TEX 36	PHO 19	TAL 7	RCH 13	DAR 8	CLT 8	DOV 22	POC 12	MCH 5	SON 13	NHA 4	DAY 36	CHI 19	IND 34	POC 2	GLN 42	MCH 12	BRI 5	CAL 5	RCH 30	NHA 16	DOV 3	KAN 10	TAL 40	CLT 19	MAR 23	ATL 25	TEX 14	PHO 43	HOM 36	16th	3929

• A: If a driver only relieved for another A simple note should be enough.
• B: If a driver Qualified the car and also relieved for that driver, adding it in the note should be sufficient.
• C: In a case like that of Earnhardt Jr. we could simply add a tooltip to note he relieved Kyle Busch. I have done the same with Geoff Bodine at the 1996 Save Mart Supermarkets 300 were he failed to qualify a one-off entry

I don't want to make things so complicated but I think esthetics wise this is the best solution. Let me know what you think and feel free to add other ideas. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 15:54, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

This seems like a good compromise to me, though I think the tooltip should include the team name as well in the case of Earnhardt for consistency with what is listed in the rest of the table (e.g. "Also relieved Kyle Busch in the No. 5 Hendrick Motorsports Chevrolet"). --Bcschneider53 (talk) 19:01, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

That's fine by me. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 19:48, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

I added the Relief icon to the Key. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 20:59, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi WikiProject NASCAR members. Would one of you mind taking a look at NASCAR Winston Cup Series Era and assessing it? It was created by a university student as part of a Wiki Ed assisted class assignment. It looks pretty good formatting wise, etc. but I'm not really familiar with NASCAR so can say how it is content wise (i.e., whether this stuff is already sufficiently covered in other articles so a stand-alone for it is not needed). It's in the mainspace now so that makes it fair game for anyone to edit, but hopefully you'll keep in mind that it is part of an ongoing class assignment; in other words, if it needs tons or improvement or needs to go, then perhaps WP:USERFY would be a better option than complete revision/deletion so as to allow the student to continue to try and improve it, and be graded for their work. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:42, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@Marchjuly: I have never been involved in a Wiki Ed project, so I'm not exactly sure who to give feedback to. Here's my initial thoughts: There's no specific notability standard to judge it by, so I gave it a run by WP:GNG, which it clearly passes. The topic is more briefly covered in NASCAR lore, and the Winston Cup Series era page seems right now to be an expansion of that. I don't know what the specific assignment is, but it seems to me like the page would be more well-suited as a page about the growth of the sport during the era, not just highlights of the area, some of which are already covered in the aforementioned NASCAR lore page. However, there seems to be a lot of time and effort put in to just wholesale the page and change everything, especially when end of terms are near for a lot of students. It'll work either way, I have no qualms about that. A "for the main article" note can be added to the 70s, 80s and 90s sections of NASCAR lore to account for the page. Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 23:52, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to look at this. Technically, it's in the mainspace so anyone you can edit it or discuss ways to improve it article's talk page, but I'm not sure if the creator will respond: students editors seem to often disappear once their class has finished or they posted moved their work to the mainspace. There was also a brief talk page discussion about the article on Shalor (Wiki Ed)'s, who's helping the students in this class, where comments can probably also be made. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:19, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

The gallery of Zach Catanzareti Photo (https://www.flickr.com/photos/58980992@N03/) has very good photos of 2018 that can be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons. I hope it serves you. --Adriel 00 (talk) 18:37, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the resource, Adriel 00. I'll look into it and see what improvements we can make to pages. Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 15:19, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

I always look suspiciously at high quality images on flickr because frequently they are flickrwashing. I checked into Zach's flickr page and followed it to his author page on the FrontStretch. Everything looks legitimate as far as I can tell, so my opinion is that you can start uploading. Watermarks are covered here. Royalbroil 05:28, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Help_desk#changes. Also, the article is mostly uncited. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:11, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I looked at the Daytona results and the names are often followed by (i) (R) or (W). I still haven't guessed what W is. Any reader coming to just one article should be given an explanation of these arcane symbols. Rmhermen (talk) 17:32, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

@Rmhermen: (i) means a driver is ineligible to receive points in that series. (R) means competing for NASCAR Rookie of the Year honors. (W) means former race winner, so everyone at the Daytona results page who has it has won the Daytona 500 in the past. Zappa⚡Matic 17:46, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

There should always be a key like the one used at the 2014 Daytona 500. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 17:54, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Doesn't look like it's been used since the 2015 500 for some reason. Zappa⚡Matic 18:34, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

I tried adding a key to either Indy or Darlington of 2018 and kept getting reverted. So meh. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 14:16, 26 February 2019 (UTC)