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I considered that a certain post does not comply with the SO rules since it explicitly asked if there was a tool that performs a certain specific task, it may or may not be correct, since I do not want to focus my discussion on that. Another user also voted to close it. But a few moments ago I noticed these actions:

enter image description here

The closing and reopening vote are only intended to annul the votes already given. Is that kind of action correct? Or maybe I'm wrong: why did the moderator close a question that he considers to be correctly open since he edited it?

If I am wrong then in which cases is it valid to do it and in which cases is it not?

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    If OP's main question is clearly asking "Is there a tool" rather than "How to X", I think a different party editing that out would pretty clearly conflict with OP's intent. That said, closing and re-opening (or deleting and un-deleting) are common ways for mods to clear the existing votes if they think they're unjustified, which seems like a perfectly reasonable method to me, given that there isn't really any other way to do it. Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 5:37
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    I know you've said that you don't want to focus on whether the post actually deserved to be reopened or not, but I think that's relevant. Especially since the moderator in question appears to have potentially changed the OP's intent when editing the question. So could you share a link to this question please?
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 5:40
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    @cigien My question is not in the sense of whether or not it deserves to be reopened so I will not share the link. My question is simple: It is correct that the moderator cancels the votes of other users
    – eyllanesc
    Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 5:42
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    I'm curious about why this would ever not be OK. Moderators are users, too, who have the right to close and reopen questions. They are also exception-handlers, who step in to resolve exceptional cases. If moderators could not override actions taken by users, then they would be effectively powerless.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 5:44
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    @CertainPerformance So does the concept of cleaning votes exist? Who can clear the votes?
    – eyllanesc
    Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 5:45
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    Sounds basically like "Should a moderator be able to single-handedly close, open, delete, undelete posts?", I'd say definitely yes, unless there's significant disagreement about it, in which case the particular post could be discussed on Meta or in a chat room first. Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 5:46
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    @CodyGray Based on my time in the community, I've only seen that moderators only act in cases where the community can't solve a problem. And in this case there was no such problem since the post had not yet been closed.
    – eyllanesc
    Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 5:47
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    @CertainPerformance I try to make my question generic, if you point out that it is a common action among the moderators then it would be great for someone to post an answer explaining the criteria for such actions. I prefer that this type of thing is handled by the community.
    – eyllanesc
    Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 5:50
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    @eyllanesc - I've seen other cases where diamond moderators are acting just like high rep curators would ... but with a more effective broom / shovel ... if you get my drift :-). Perfectly OK in my opinion.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 6:26
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    "I've only seen that moderators only act in cases where the community can't solve a problem" I'm not sure what situations you classify in that category but I see moderators close/reopen/edit/protect posts all the time. All of which are situations that can be handled by regular users. There was a post a while ago about a moderator reviewing hundreds of posts on a daily basis.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 8:11
  • @CodyGray "They are also exception-handlers, who step in to resolve exceptional cases." I guess the whole thing comes down to kind of define what an exceptional case is. Otherwise we wouldn't need any definition of moderator beyond "supreme being". Commented Jan 28, 2021 at 10:20
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    Are there also non-diamond moderators?
    – mkrieger1
    Commented Jan 28, 2021 at 16:09
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    Anyone with 10k or more reputation can be considered a "moderator" of sorts, @mkrieger1. We regularly get users saying that their question was "closed by a moderator", when no diamond moderators were involved at all. Closing questions is viewed as a moderator privilege, even though it doesn't require a diamond moderator. Because this site is primarily moderated by the community, it is reasonable to view regular community members as having moderator privileges.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 28, 2021 at 20:46

4 Answers 4

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Yes, I think it's absolutely valid. We give moderators a lot of power, and the hope is that they will use that power to achieve the results they think will benefit the site the most. Generally, so long as actions are taken with the goal of improving the quality of the site, I'm fine with it.

Closing a question and reopening it immediately seems to be a perfectly valid way for a moderator to reopen a question that they think should be reopened. If the end result of these actions is to have an on-topic question be open, then I don't see any issues with it being done this way.

Yes, such actions override the actions of multiple other users. But that is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the powers that we bestow upon moderators. They are capable of many, even more powerful actions than overriding other users' close votes. I believe they should exercise these powers in all the cases that they think is appropriate. We also trust them to be able to judge when is appropriate to use these powers.

Of course, if your question was about a specific action, then we could, and should, investigate closely whether the action was appropriate. And if the moderator abused their powers in any way whatsoever, they must be held accountable. But since you're specifically asking a generic question, I think the answer is yes: It's valid for moderators to use their powers in this fashion.

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    Perhaps it is of utmost importance in some cases to have some sort of explanation/dialogue with the parties whose actions are being suddenly vanquished. If they did outright naughty things, the mod should say "That behavior is not welcome here". If the user(s) were acting in good faith, then the mod can explain "That course of action is not good because [...]". In the latter case, no one feels pummeled and "sound philosophies" can be exchanged. That said, if 3 people close, the mod reopens, then 3 different people close again -- Houston, there's probably a problem. Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 11:37
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    @mickmackusa Yes, I agree that moderators (and even other users) should try to engage with each other to understand why they are choosing contradictory actions (even though no one is obliged to do so). But I'm not sure that there is an extra burden on a moderator to explain themselves just because their votes override other users' votes. As mentioned, they are expected to use the powers they have, in the way they deem appropriate.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 16:04
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    It's also not clear to me why the 3-1-3 voting pattern is an issue. Would it be a problem if this question had been subject to a 3-3-3 pattern, as is often the case? Again, mods have more powers than regular users for good reasons. Unfortunately, since the OP is not intending to share a link to the question, for all we know the moderator did engage in a discussion with all the parties involved in SOCVR, where I assume the question was originally brought to the moderator's attention.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 16:04
  • A question I once asked was closed and reopened 3 times before deceze came and extinguished the fire. When opinions are greatly divided, I am saying that mods have an opportunity to engage with the community to explain how it is going to be and why. For the record, I have no problem with mods using their executive decision to overrule multiple non-mod decisions. I am coming at this from the perspective of learning and growth. Rarely does silence nurture growth. Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 21:11
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    Also, one reason I agree with this answer is because these actions are very much out in the open. It's clear which action has been taken and by whom, and these actions can be discussed on meta. As such, I don't see a real possibility for abuse, since systematic abuse would likely result in swift action. And outside of abuse, I'd trust a moderator over 3 random community members any day, as they all have tons of experience and have more information at their disposal than normal community members.
    – Erik A
    Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 21:48
  • @ErikA "...I'd trust a moderator over 3 random community members any day..." I'm not totally convinced of that argument. Moderators are only humans and make mistakes too and the 3 random community members weren't random but also quite experienced. If for example there were a moderator that often disagrees with random community members at some point I would be inclined to trust the community members more. So maybe a statistical approach might be in order. Commented Jan 29, 2021 at 12:33
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It's valid, because that's kinda what mod powers are for: doing things above and beyond what standard curators are able to do, as and where necessary.


But I share your concern in this particular case. Yes, I know this Meta question ostensibly is not about specifics, but the event that prompted it is what led to this question being asked, and without the context of that event any answers to this question are going to be brief and unsatisfying.

I was under the impression that editing a question to change the asker's meaning was verboten, regardless of whether you have a diamond or not. The asker was quite specific that they wanted a tool to do this for them, which is off-topic; if they themselves had chosen to edit the question into its current state and flagged for reopening, that would be fine.

What happened instead is that the question is entirely different from what its asker intended, and it's circumvented the standard process for reopening - both of which seem far beyond "as and where necessary".

That said, I trust our moderators. I may not like everything they do (especially when they suspend me, LOL) but I trust them. I believe that this is simply a case of lack of information (question revision history is, shall we say, "limited") and I would love to have that information made available, should the moderator in question be able and willing to do so, so that we can hopefully understand why this happened.

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    My understanding (or at least view on the matter) is that changing the asker's meaning is reasonable when the current meaning requires that the question be closed but the change would allow it to remain open. Furthermore, I would argue that converting a resource request into a "how to" question is not changing the meaning. If anything, it is broadening it without losing anything. Not to mention everyone would rather have their question open and answered than closed and in its original form.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 17:21
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    I feel like whenever I come into SOCVR and say "everybody likes [some thing]", Cody is usually the usually one of the first to chime in and say "I don't like [some thing]". ..."no comment downvotes" come to mind. You can't please everyone. Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 21:19
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    Apart from that, this page is worth getting out in the open. It is better for the community to know that it is better, in the desert, to transform a whale into a camel as a form of mercy. Bippity-boppity-boo. Commented Jan 27, 2021 at 21:19
  • @CodyGray As per the meta question you linked, the third rule to consider for salvaging questions is "what you already know about software available for this purpose", i.e. what research you have done beforehand. The question being discussed had none of that in its original form, nor does your rewritten version, which is why it reads like a tool request in the former state and a "gimme teh codez" in the latter. As such, I believe it should have been closed either way.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 28, 2021 at 11:54
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    Meh. "Gimme teh codez" is not off-topic. Furthermore, that list of things was copied from Software Recommendations, and was not meant as a criteria for salvaging recommendation questions, only as advisory for how to ask a good question. If you look at the questions Shog9 salvaged there, he didn't spend hours doing a bunch of research just to incorporate a discussion of it into the question. Expecting that is absurd. If you don't think the question in question shows adequate research effort, downvote it; that's the first reason listed on the tooltip. It's not a close reason, though.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 28, 2021 at 20:49
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    This answer betrays a common mental fallacy of many high-rep users (and is indeed present in kind of society where some people enforce rules): what you’re advocating has the effect of enforcing rules for rules’ sake. Which is completely backwards. Having rules is not an end in itself, rules have a specific purpose: to make the site more useful. Cody’s action accomplished that purpose. “But the rules” is a very weak objection to this, especially if it requires an overly narrow, draconian reading of the rules. Commented Jan 29, 2021 at 11:02
  • "verboten"? Do you mean "forbidden"?
    – gouessej
    Commented Jan 29, 2021 at 11:14
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    @KonradRudolph Your argument is utterly nonsensical; rules exist to guide people as to how they should act within a specific context. Without that guidance there could only be anarchy - which is orthogonal to building any sort of ordered system, such as a Q&A site. If people decide to act outside those rules for whatever reason, anarchy creeps back in. Hence, rules need to be enforced - impartially and equally - to prevent anarchy and ensure the ordered system remains intact.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 29, 2021 at 12:09
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    @IanKemp Yes, without rules there’s anarchy. Conversely, enforcing rules for their own sake without thinking also has a name: tyranny. Again, you’re forgetting that the rules must be subservient to their purpose, not the other way round. Commented Jan 29, 2021 at 12:35
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    @KonradRudolph If someone believes a rule is not fit for purpose, they must engage with the community, providing reasons why they think the rule is problematic, whether they think it should be removed or replaced, and in the latter case what to replace it with. If they receive consensus, then and only then can the old rule be removed or replaced. But until or unless that happens, the old rule remains in force, and should be enforced just like any other. Using terms like "tyranny" or "rules must be subservient" to justify rule-breaking is a very slippery slope to anarchy.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 29, 2021 at 12:54
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    @IanKemp I wouldn’t have used terms like “tyranny” if you hadn’t used “anarchy”. In the current context both terms are exactly equally hyperbolic. In reality, what we have her is an (apparent) conflict between the purpose of the site and a rule (really, a guideline), applied to a specific situation. Purpose overrides rule 100% of the time. That isn’t anarchy, it’s common sense. (But even that is hypothetical, since it’s not clear any rule was overridden, except from an idiosyncratic, overly strict interpretation.) Commented Jan 29, 2021 at 13:52
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Is it valid for a diamond moderator to use his powers to override the closing votes of other users?

Yes, absolutely. Part of the moderator duty is to mediate in situations where several users disagree about what should be done with a post. Moderators may also use locks to prevent users from casting votes, either temporary because there is no consensus or some conflict, or permanently, because the post should be left as-is.

If moderators use normal close votes however, they don't necessarily have a final say in the matter. It is then possible for high rep (>3k) users to disagree with the moderator - if a moderator closes a post, then 3 such high rep users can re-open it. This happens now and then, when moderators make human mistakes or perhaps when they misunderstood something technical that required deeper domain knowledge.

I considered that a certain post does not comply with the SO rules since it explicitly asked if there was a tool that performs a certain specific task

Generally tool recommendations are off-topic indeed. However, there are situations where someone asks "How do I do x? Is there a tool I can use?". These can sometimes get edited into shape by removing the tool request part, if the "how do I do x" part is detailed enough. This appears to have been the case here.

Also note that posts with bounties (which this one was for a while) can't get closed by regular users, because of some site design choice. If a post with an open bounty needs to be closed, we need to flag for moderator help to do it.

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The closing and reopening vote are only intended to annul the votes already given. Is that kind of action correct?

It doesn’t seem incorrect. Questions with close votes tend to attract more close votes, so a question that’s one vote away from closure stands a pretty good chance of getting there. If a moderator looks at such a question and sees either that the problem with the question has been addressed, or that the votes seem inappropriate for some other reason, then it might make sense to close and reopen the question. Basically, if a mod looks at a question and thinks that they’d reopen it if it were closed, then it makes sense to take similar action immediately instead of waiting for the closure to happen.

Moderator time is a scarce resource, so if they can solve a problem preemptively and thereby reduce the number of times they have to visit the question, that seems like a good thing.

That said, I’m confident that mods don't go looking to subvert the users. We’re all on the same team here, and the moderators rely on the community to handle most of the issues.

it explicitly asked if there was a tool that performs a certain specific task

Go back and look at the question to which you’re referring. Do you think that it should be closed in its current state? If no, then it sounds like you’re in agreement with the moderator, and the right thing happened. If yes, then there’s a mismatch between your understanding of which questions deserve to be closed and the mod’s; ask about the question in Meta to get a better understanding.

Note also that there are particular reasons for some of the “rules” about what is or isn’t acceptable. Questions like Is there a tool for X? are frowned on because that’s close to asking for a resource recommendation, and based on experience we don’t want the site to devolve into a recommendation site. But if someone is asking *whether* a tool exists, it’s probably because they have a problem, and we have lots and lots of questions of the form How can I solve problem X? So it’s often possible to convert a borderline question into a good one.

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  • I don't think raising a mod flag is going to be very useful. I could be wrong, but I suspect mods are not going to get involved in a dispute like that. If the mod who closed the question doesn't respond, bringing it up on Meta is probably the best bet.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 30, 2021 at 6:45
  • You'd have to really be making a "mod x is abusing their privileges" argument in order to raise a moderator flag. (We mods have a pretty strictly followed, albeit informal, policy that we don't handle flags on our own actions.) If it's just more of "I disagree, and I'd like a second opinion", then that should be brought up on Meta, as @cigien says.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 30, 2021 at 7:39
  • I probably should have been specific, but the kind of situations I had in mind were like "Obvious problem X has been fixed, but I think problem Y was overlooked," or "Problem X was fixed in an edit, but the fix was subsequently edited/reverted." Agree with you both, though... meta is the right place to discuss issues. Will edit.
    – Caleb
    Commented Jan 30, 2021 at 7:46

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