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Fixed name spelling

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Hi @Ferret: That's how these Ukrainian names are spelled in English. You are aware 4A Games is a Ukrainian company, right? See recent interview for example where co-founder Andriy Prokhorov specifically says that "even after moving main office to Malta in 2014 (they still have 2nd, smaller office in Kyiv), they remain a Ukrainian company" Metro Exodus. Українці створили гру про постапокаліпсис у Росії (in Ukrainian).--Piznajko (talk) 02:37, 18 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Piznajko, Mr. Maximchuk refers to himself as "Alexander" in English media (cf. his LinkedIn profile and all Metro game credits), the same way Prokhorov is consistently called Andrew.[1][2] That's not really a matter of opinion. Lordtobi (✉) 06:10, 18 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So what. They can put whatever they want on their LinkedIn - there's still such a concept as "citizenship" and they are all still Ukrainian citizens and thus were given those names as their birth names (e.g., Andriy, Oleksandr etc.). These are their birth names and last time I checked - they haven't legally changed their names.--Piznajko (talk) 21:25, 19 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Piznajko, by that logic, we would have to put the native Cyrillic name, because he does not legally have a name written in the Latin alphabet, but we don't. His corporate account lists "Oleksandr Volodymyrovych Maksymchuk", but that would cause a discrepancy between the last names, wouldn't it? We also exclude the middle name because it is never used in reliable sources.
In English common typography, "Aleksandr"/"Oleksandr" is represented as "Alexander", so do reliable sources, so does he, and so do we. MOS:ID backs up this approach. This is why we call Stalin "Joseph", not "Iosif". If you can bring up any guidelines that back up your approach, please do so. Before that, however, leave the article untouched to avoid edit warring (see also WP:STATUSQUO). Lordtobi (✉) 21:47, 19 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry for being blunt/rude Lordtobi, but the statement ""Aleksandr"/"Oleksandr" is represented as "Alexander"" is completely and utterly false: look at hundreeds of articles diff that have "Oleksandr" as their given name. A correct/true statement would say: "In English Ukrainian name "Олександр" is represented as "Oleksandr" and Russian name "Александр" is represented as "Alexander""--Piznajko (talk) 16:32, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Piznajko, just because some do does not mean that everyone does. Oleksandr is the transliteration, for Mr. Maximcuk "Alexander" is translation. You are alleging that Maximchuk does not know his own name. Again, MOS:ID. You are also disrespecting status quo further. Lordtobi (✉) 16:36, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lordtobi I'm sorry for being rude again, but you statement just because some do does not mean that everyone does. is false again. Literally the opposite is true "All Ukrainian given names "Олексанрд" are always spelled as "Oleksandr" in English (wiht sligh veration at times of being "Oleksander" or "Olexandr", but those are much less used)."
Source/guideline? Also, please stop edit warring. Lordtobi (✉) 16:40, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lordtobi, I'm not edit warring. I'm correcting a wrong spelling, while you edit war by bringing back wrong spelling. Pinging @Roman Spinner:, who's a much more experience editor on English Wikipedia and can explain why "In English Ukrainian name "Олександр" is represented as "Oleksandr" and Russian name "Александр" is represented as "Alexander""--Piznajko (talk) 16:42, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lordtobi, I'll wait for @Roman Spinner: to provide linguistic explanation why "In English Ukrainian name "Олександр" is represented as "Oleksandr" and Russian name "Александр" is represented as "Alexander"", but for the time being here's an example of how official documents (it's an official document, even though it's an "unofficial translation from Ukrainian") are translated and use "Oleksandr" to represent Ukrainian given name "Олександр": url to World Bank doc--Piznajko (talk) 16:47, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lordtobi Also, while we're waiting for @Roman Spinner: to weigh in, here's a quick guide to how to write Ukrainain names in English (I realize it's not an academic work and that's why I'm providing this just as a reference - will wait of the actual linguistic explanation from Mr. Spinner) https://www.behindthename.com/names/usage/ukrainian Behind the name: Ukrainian Names--Piznajko (talk) 16:54, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Also Lordtobi I'm sorry for being rude, but by saying Oleksandr is the transliteration, for Mr. Maximcuk "Alexander" is translation. you showed that you don't have any understanding of how foreign names are represented in English (your statement above is fully and utterly false). A correct statement would be: "In English foreign names are mostly represented through transcription (e.g., through how they sound in the original language) or less frequently ghrouhg transliteration (e.g., through how they are written in the original language). Such consept as "translating a given name" doesn't actually exist in real life--Piznajko (talk) 17:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
1) That's not edit warring works. You are trying to overturn our guidelines (such as WP:V and MOS:ID) to enforce a statement which you, as of yet, were not able to provide a guideline for. You were reverted and its your turn to gain consensus, not leave a comment and then revert again. See WP:BRD, WP:EW, WP:STATUSQUO.
2) You will have to provide a guideline that says that we are required to use the direct transliteration of a name, even when the name has a reliably sourcable English (note: not just Latinized) representation. I don't think such a guideline exists.
3) Yes, "Oleksandr" is the correct transliteration, just like "Iosif" is the correct transliteration for Stalin's native Russian name. However, Stalin callid himself Joseph in English, which is represented as such in sources, and Maximchuk calls himself Alexander in English, which is represented as such in sources (primary as well as secondary). This is just what MOS:ID (and, subsequently, WP:V) is about. We also call Chopin "Frédéric Chopin", not "Fryderyk Chopin". Would you consider Verka Serduchka's stage name wrong, because it is not the transliteration of his legal name? Lordtobi (✉) 17:18, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You are bringing so many concepts that have nothing to do with this discussion. Verka Serduchka is a stage name, it has nothing to do with his real name (Andriy Danylko) - why would you bring a concept of "stage name" into this discussion - it has no rellevance whatsover, you might as well have told me to go fuckmyself and and try climbing the Reichstag dressed as Spider-Man. Also, the fact that you refer to WP:V and MOS:ID again and again, doesn't make these two WP rules relevent to what's being discussed here - plain and simple they don't have anything to do with the topic of discussion here. п.с. The only relevant tidpid from your last comment is that "we don't write Iosif Stalin, but instead we write "Joseph Stalin" => it's a unique case of a historical figure whose name was spelled this (internaltinoal) way in historical bookcs for many different reasons (they don't apply whatsover to this case: plain and simple, the people involved in this artcle are not as famous as Joseph Stalin and nobody is probably going to write history books about them)--Piznajko (talk) 17:53, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So you're saying Maximchuk is not important enough for us to comply with how he calls himself? And are only people who use alternative names as stage names allowed to use that name? David Walliams has a name one letter off from his legal name, Bernard Sanders goes publicly by "Bernie", and William Murray Hawkins may call himself "Trip". Apparently, everyone may except for Alexander Maximchuk. I have provided relevant guidelines why we use this format, while you only keep reiterating "that's the legal name" (and then complain when I repeat myself), without providing any reason why the legal name has to be here. You also wouldn't enforce calling Oles Shishkovtsov "Oleksandr", because he certainly can use a different form of his name. Lordtobi (✉) 18:54, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Jeez, again stage names have nothing to do with this discussion, I don't know why are bringing it over and over (and no, Verka Serduchka and anyone else who uses a stage name are welcome to do so; but it has no impact whatsover on their "real" birth name, which in case of Verka Serduhcka happens to be Andriy Danylko; and just as an FYI, we do indeed correctly transcribe Verka Serchuchka's stage name from its Ukrainian form (Вєрка Сєрдючка) to the English form (Verka Serduchka). ps. Regarding Oles Shishkovtsov - again you're wrong and this has nothing to do with stage names => Oles is how MANY Ukrainians prefer to shorten their full name Oleksandr, see Oles Ulianenko for example(linguistically speaking, it's technically a demunitive of their full name) - just like many Kathrines prefer to shorten their name (aka use a demunitive form) to Katy in Engilsh-speaking countries;, but again I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion: Олександр => to Oleksandr conversion from Ukrainian to English has nothing to do with dimunitive forms of names (Alexandr is NOT a dimunitive form of Oleksandr, it's a different name used in a different langugage)--Piznajko (talk) 19:36, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Again, we are not required to list the legal name here, we list the common names. Many people have non-stage name common names, including three non-Verka examples ("Trip Hawkins", "Bernie Sanders", "Frédéric Chopin"; my last comment actually didn't include Verka at all) that I already explained. The same goes for Oleksandr Viktorovych Shyshkovstov with common name "Oles Shishkovstov" (shortened first name, different spelling for last name), Andriy Kostiantynovych Prokhorov with common name "Andrew Prokhorov" (anglified first name), Oleksandr Volodymyrovych Maksymchuk with common name "Alexander Maximchuk" (anglified first and last names). If you own Metro Exodus, I'm farily certain it's credits will list exactly that too if you check it. Whether any of this is lingustically correct is not our business, rather the opposite.
By this point, the discussion is just going in circles. You keep ignoring the relevant guidelines, and instead of providing links to guidelines that would back up your argument, you keep reiterating the argument itself. This way we most likely will not come to any agreement here. Let's just wait for comments from third parties, that's probably more constructive that feuding each other. Lordtobi (✉) 20:40, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, Lordtobi, by this point I've explained a thousand times my point, but you choose to ignore it, so I'll do a quick summary that should clarify things and if you still refuse to follow these commonly accepted principles - we can wait for others to weigh in.: 1) Point #1: There ARE a lot of instances of Ukrainians' names being INCORRECTLY written in English-language media/sources, the reasons for this are complex and date back centuries but it's sufficies to say that it has to do with Ukraine's colonial past (TLDR: ~400 years of Ukraine being a colony of Russian/Soviet empire where Ukrainian language was overtly/covertly prohibited) 2) Point #2: Because of Point #1, you cannot just say on English WP: okay Reliable Source A/B/C says that this Ukrainian name should be spelled this way, therefore EN wikipedia is going to follow that; it DOES not always work for Ukrainian names (e.g., you cannot say that we should rename the article on Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko to Pyotr Poroshenko because a LARGE number of very well respected and reliable sources spell his name in English from Russian (Петр Порошенко => Pyotr Poroshenko) and not from its Ukrainian original (Петро Порошенко => Petro Poroshenko): e.g., for example Foreign Policy, Washington Examiner etc. etc. and countless other respectable magazines/newspapers have incorrectly spelled his name as "Pyotr Poroshenko", but it is NOT a reason to use that argument (Reliable sources use that spelling => thus enwiki will use it too). 3) Point #3 There's objective way to write Ukrainian names in English in one way that's correct and that's true regarless of what some Reliable Sources might say (e.g., Ukrinian name Петро should always be repersented by Petro in English, Андрій => by Andriy in English and so on and so forth). These names are given to Ukrainians as their birth names and unless they legally change them => that's their names no matter what and that's the names that should be used to describe them.--Piznajko (talk) 21:19, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As I mentioned multiple times before, it is not the media that is misrepresenting him, he uses this name himself. If Poroshenko called himself "Piotr" or "Peter" or "Jonathan" in English, and reliable sources also reflected this, yes the article should be moved (per WP:COMMONNAME). The lead would then read "Petro Oleksiyovych Poroshenko ([native name and DOB]), commonly known as Jonathan Proshenko, ...". But he doesn't and they don't, so we don't either. It's the other way around for Maximchuk, as you can see here, on his social media, and everywhere else, the only exception being his corporate account (which lists all names in full) and native media that use the native Ukrainian name. Lordtobi (✉) 07:00, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • List their English common names. That's the convention. The credits of Metro Exodus (an official product from 4A) shows the name "Alexander Maximchuk", so this is what we should use. There is no translation issue. AdrianGamer (talk) 10:41, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should actually look at how THEY spell their own names and follow their lead. We don't even know if they're Ukrainians FFS. Maybe they are Russians working in a Ukrainian-Maltese studio? Or Americans of Russian origin. Take a look at the credits for their latest 2019 game Metro Exodus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJjAkcX9nCc&t=960 Since timestampes are not allowed to be linked on Wikipedia for some reason, open it approx. at 16:00 Do you see that? It's spelled Maximchuk. Looking at that, I don't see any reason to change it to some Ukrainian spelling or some such. Openlydialectic (talk) 19:51, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's not disallowed, there was just an error in the link. Fixed it. Lordtobi (✉)
@Lordtobi: Thank you, sir! Openlydialectic (talk) 17:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Openlydialectic They are Ukrainian, see my comment way above (the interview developers gave where they explicitly say that they are 100% Ukrainain game studio, even though the have offices both in Ukraine/Malta: https://www.radiosvoboda.org/a/metro-exodus-game/29763717.html Metro Exodus. Українці створили гру про постапокаліпсис у Росії] (in Ukrainian). ps. As has been clearly stated above, some reliable sources (e.g., credits at the end of a video game) can incorrectly spell Ukrainian names (and as the case above show - they do). That doesn't change anything - their legal name under which the company is registered is their REAL name, exactly how it is written in Ukranian (and its English representation). The rule you mentioned Lordtobi, WP:COMMONNAME, is exactly why we should be usuing their real, legal names (which is their common names too). See how their names are spelled in the registry for 4A Games Limited: http://web.archive.org/web/20190222020134/https://offshoreleaks.icij.org/nodes/55061179 --Piznajko (talk) 02:07, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
When nobody, except for corporate registries, refers to him with that name, how is it the common name? Lordtobi (✉) 06:13, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Piznajko: That doesn't mean everyone working there's Ukrainian (is Dean Sharpe a Ukraine's citizen? should we correct his name to Denis Sharpov?) and even then 1/5 of Ukraine's population are Russians so you'd have to prove he's of Ukrainian ethnicity first, which would not matter anyway since the current status quo is clearly both COMMONNAME and his own preferred spelling (see the aforementioned credits above) Openlydialectic (talk) 17:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You lost me on the last part about ethnicity and "1/5 of Ukraine's population being Russian" - regardless of how factually true or not true that is, it has nothing to do with the discussion here. Also, fyi Dean Sharpe is not Ukrainian and nobody's is saying he's Ukrainian. Other co-founders, however, are Ukrainian and they have Ukrainian names. Also your statement Lordtobi that nobody, except for corporate registries, refers to him with that name - is not correct, you can find other website refer to 4A Games founders usnig correct spelling.--Piznajko (talk) 23:52, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Russians in Ukraine. I've got nothing else to say to you. Goodbye. Openlydialectic (talk) 16:38, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Openlydialectic Again, the fact that there are Russians in Ukraine (just like there are Russians in Germany or Russians in the USA) is not relevant to the discussion here. It seems like you're bringing them in this discussion purely by employing whataboutism.--Piznajko (talk) 16:08, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, there are some fair points mentioned here, but the insistence of editors to delete Ukrainian names of the founders written in brackets next to the existing ones, stating that a source from the 4A Games' own website is "partially dubious" is just ridiculous. Ivario (talk) 12:58, 23 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

With "dubious" I was referring mostly to consollection.com, apologies if this came off the wrong way. As for names in parentheses, this might be doable, but preferably with context such as native (Ukrainian-Cyrillic) name with transliteration to avert reader confusion, as I did at GSC Game World. Do you think we have such sources available? Lordtobi (✉) 13:35, 23 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Future of the Metro game series

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Per the developer's website, a new Metro game is in development. LordofChaos55 (talk) 13:53, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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