Talk:Batavia, Dutch East Indies

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This is a nice map also. OrganicEarth (talk) 15:37, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The following text has been added:

n 1909, Tirtoadisurjo, a graduate of OSVIA, founded the Islamic Commercial Union (Sarekat Dagang Islamiyah) in Batavia to support Indonesian merchants. Branches in other areas followed. In 1920, Tjokroaminoto and Agus Salim set up a committee in Batavia to support the Ottoman caliphate.

May we please have a reference (in English or in any language that is amenable to Google Translation) for the assertion that he set up a committee to support the Ottoman caliphate? The English language references I've looked at don't seem to mention this. I'd like to emphasize that the reference need not be in English, but should be a quality WP:RS please. FeatherPluma (talk) 19:28, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, OrganicEarth Thank you for pointing to the Beck reference for this text. Beck, if it is judged adequate, does support the text. Unfortunately, it's a bit wobbly as a source. Despite carrying the burden of verifiability for a considerable additional proportion of this article, it in itself does NOT provide adequate referencing, and is thus questionably reliable absent a second independent confirmatory source. In fact, the use of large components of Beck's language here closely approximates COPYVIO. Other tenuous sources are an architecture book - cited a half dozen times - and a travel book. Large sections of this article are uncited (it looks like several of the unreferenced sections are lifted closely from Beck), including some of the newest added content. Accordingly, the article is tagged as {{Refimprove|date=August 2015}}. (By the way, Beck is not a politically neutral person, although I don't think that comes through in the work too much. The political ambitions do not in any way diminish the acknowledged readabilty of the remarkably prodigious output. But when a politician gives us a readable but uncited narrative we have a responsibility to put up our antennas. I'd just like to see second independent confirmatory sources for what Beck alone is carrying here.) Do you happen to have any other (good) sources for all these assertions, or is this article going to mainly be based on Beck? FeatherPluma (talk) 23:18, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't investigated thoroughly, but this source seems to cover some of the same ground in a bit more detail. But by all means you are most welcome to improve the article and the citations. I think we can all agree there is a lot of room for improvement. OrganicEarth (talk) 23:40, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, OrganicEarth Thanks. Yes, I feel we completely agree on things. There is a lot of room for improvement. And yes, sources like what you are now putting forward are what would be needed. I am happy to assist in a limited way, but this article and topic are not my major focus in Wikipedia. When you add material it would be good practice to add adequate references then. This is friendly encouragement. Also, may I say that I like some of your edits. I do not want to be too intrusive in your space. I will drop by from time to time, and see if the referencing is making headway. I will try very hard not to follow the policy of redacting inadequately uncited text until you have had ample chance to upgrade sources. FeatherPluma (talk) 00:17, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately I was having some trouble with my internet connection earlier so wasn't able to massage the edits very well. But there is no excuse for sloppiness, so I do apologize. My intent was to add some quite generalized information for an area of the history that seems to have been completely omitted. Would it be synthesis to note something along the lines of "newspapers were started, business societies formed, networks of Socialist and Communists developed, as well as Islamist organizations emerged in Jakarta as well as other areas. Elites and students from the city's schools were active in the independence movement"? I don't feel I have a good enough grasp of the subject matter to adequately summarize and I don't want to synthesize too much, but I think some summarizing would be useful. On the other hand some of the specifics and names can be interesting also especially as Wikipedia allows Wikilinking for readers wanting to know more about a particular individual or aspect (although I notice many are coming up as redlinks..) . My intention was really just to give a generalized sense of developments and Jakarta's role. I don't really want to get too much into the alphabet soup of acronyms and groups names (especially as there are at least two and sometimes three languages involved).

Thank you for your edits. They are quite helpful. In my experience the generalized tags are less useful and tend to hang about. If there's specific material that's disputed or wrong I think it's best to just fix it or cite it or remove it as needed. Take care. OrganicEarth (talk) 00:31, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The caliphate assertion jumped out a bit to me as well. I think the point is perhaps that there was a broader Islamic kinship that played a role in the awakening nationalism and that gave ground for unifying and motivating some of the organizations. But again, I don't have a source at the moment that says that, just one that says they organized to support the caliphate. :) OrganicEarth (talk) 00:35, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, OrganicEarth As to your last paragraph, everything you are saying is spot on. I think it's a rather nice cultural deduction. I am trying to struggle through some additional sources, including some Indonesian language sources, for more information about Oemar Said Tjokroaminoto (I have done a few edits there as I work on this). Wouldn't it be nice if the (rather obvious) conclusion were actually stated? As it stands, we may decide ultimately that it has undue weight, but it's very fair to see what we find. I will dabble with that a bit over the next few days. I have 6 or 7 Indonesian language sources on my screen that I am trying to understand. Very slow process, but enjoyable.
Yes, I think the summary elements you've abstracted are going to be reference supportable from what I am seeing in sources. And yes, in many ways the tags are a bit of nonsense. Taking the time to actually sort things out is the best thing. However, there's quite a bit, so the tags stand as indicators of intent and ambition. Were we only to be immortal we might even have time for all the improvements we could make. And thank you for the feedback, it's a pleasure. FeatherPluma (talk) 01:57, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have merged the relevant components of History of Jakarta to this article, as it appears to be present community consensus that this component of the timeline of Jakarta should have its own article here. The content there has been trimmed. Nevertheless, adequate content remains to maintain article continuity there. Explanatory hats have been added to that article and to the relevant subsection there. The objectives are 1) to resolve the WP:REDUNDANTFORK and 2) to work toward improving the referencing of the resultant consolidated text in one place. I do not anticipate that I will complete this process in the short term, as I will be working on it intermittently over the next 3 or 4 months, and other editors may wish to make their own upgrades as well. FeatherPluma (talk) 04:17, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is almost a good article, you might want to consider nominating this.--Rochelimit (talk) 13:55, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Rochelimit; That's very nice. Due to a lot of off-wiki action in the next 2 to 3 months I do not have the time to nominate or sponsor it presently. Also, I think further upgrades are both necessary and attainable. Maybe we can continue to chip away at this episodically for another few months? FeatherPluma (talk) 02:13, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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