User talk:Marcocapelle

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Mason just asked me to stop creating new noblewomen categories. I think this is very unfair and an abuse of process. She has clearly not in Amy way presented an argument that being a noblewomam is not defining, and it is clearly a case where being such as a place where gender and occupation intersect a huge amount. So much so that most such categories as far as I can tell are fully diffused btmy gender. Dukes and Duchesses; Counts or Earls and Countesses, Barons and Baroness, Princesses and princesses. For most of these noble titles there is no gender neutral position. I do not think anyone would ever call a duchess a Duke or a Countess a count. Mason is the only of about 5 editors who has proposed deletion, and she has not really addressed how that would work. Does this mean delete Countess, duchess etc cats, or would we just delete the women nobility tree. And not allow say French noblewomen but allow French Duchesses? An issue here is some of the people who get placed directly in X nationality women are noblewomen for whom we either do not know the title, or do not have a category on the title. I think being a noblewomen is in the main more defining than being a Countess or a duchess. In a lot of cases the real difference between Countess and duchess is negligible. Some women are both simultaneously. Lastly is women nobility mean to collect articles on titles or people? Right now it's actual content is articles on titles, although only 2. I am thinking we want both categories, one to collect articles on titles, and another to collect articles on people

John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Johnpacklambert: there is no sense of urgency in creating new noblewomen categories, so let's first wait how the discussion plays out. I agree with you that deletion would raise issues and maybe at most a merge is possible. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:26, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Someone has tried to argue Queens do not go here since royalty and nobility are different. However Royalty is a sub-cat of nobility. So it would seem we can place all royalty categories within nobility categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:44, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think we want to move this to by nationality. The think is here we want to link the title to the country where it originates in, the actual residence of the holder of the title does not matter. I think we might want to go the other way around and change most categories to forms like "Counts in France" instead of "French counts". I also noticed that "royalty by country" is a sub-cat of this. Up until recently "royalty" was a sub-cat of "nobility", however an editor recently moved it out. He also left a very rude note on my talk page about this. The things is many people have at the same time held titles that were both royal and noble. So for a time the King of England was at the same time Duke of Normandy, Duke of Anjou and Duke of Aquitaine, all nobles titles in France. The King of Denmark was Duke of Holstein, and there are other examples. Also at times you had dukes and other holders of noble tiles who were de facto independent. It might be better to create a parent category "Nobility and royalty" and possibly rename some of the sub-cats along those lines. I think though we really should stay with country. "Nationality" is often a very poor way to descibe anything pre-1800, and that is when a large portion of the people who were nobility that we have articles actually lived.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:11, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• • This especially comes up because the Kingdom of France up until 1526 included the County of Flanders, the least French part of what is now Belgium. The Counts of Flanders are clearly "Counts in France", calling them "French counts" seems much more problematic. Also the Kingdom of the Netherlands from 1815-1830 includes modern Belgium, calling any nobles then "Nobles in the Netherlands" works, calling them "Dutch nobles" which is how it would be formulated on nationality lines, is more problematic. There are a lot more cases along these lines.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:14, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One issue here is some of these were monarches in what is now South Africa before South Africa existed. However we have other similarly poorly named categories. Sometimes with no rhyme of reason. We have "Princes of the Holy Roman Empure" but "Princesses in the Holy Roman Empire". Neither is primarily the children of the Emperor. There were dozens of small principalities in the Holy Roman Empire, the top ranked people were mainly the electors and the King of Bohemia, but it does seem the average Duke had more power than the average prince. So I think in would do better. I think in general with nobility we should only use "Duke of foo", "prince of foo" etc when they are "Dukes of York" or "Princes of Wales" where that is an actual title. Which means "Princes in Wales" would be the various Princes in early Medieval times, and a distinct category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:01, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We have both Category:Counts in the Holy Roman Empire and Category:Counts of the Holy Roman Empire. I do not believe "Count of the Holy Roman Empire" was a title. I also do not believe there is any other discernable difference. Since it was not a title, we probably should use the in form, but even more clear we are not served by having 2 categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:45, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As per outcome Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_August_12#Category:South_Korean_food_writers, I've never merged a category, how is it done? LibStar (talk) 05:06, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @LibStar: you don't need to do anything. The closer User:Queen of Hearts will take care of it. It'll be done probably within the next few days. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:11, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  OK thanks. LibStar (talk) 05:12, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was also a Latino civil rights movement in the US centered on the work of LULAC. So I think the disambiguation is very much needed. John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:22, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rv. These were historical **geography** categories hence their usage was perfecttly valid. I reverted your removals. If you disagree, please explain. --Altenmann >talk 04:09, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. If there was a dicussion about this (I admit I may not be aware of it), please include its link to edit summaries. If there was no such discussion, it is not a good idea of embarking on massive changes without talking them through. --Altenmann >talk 04:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Altenmann: there have been numerous discussions in the course of years. An example is Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_May_21#Places_by_former_East_German_administrative_division. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• I see. I think there must be a general RFC in WT:CAT, because these "numerous discussions" missed my attention. I do see your point made in CFD, but I do have arguments against it. I will start the RFC tomorrow. I will let you know. --Altenmann >talk 05:11, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I was thinking this through and finally agreed that categorization by old subdivision has little value --Altenmann >talk 18:13, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The dwscriptor for this category sats that thry are "counts in the Russian Empire". I think we should remame it to in.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A tag has been placed on Category:Establishments in the Crimean Khanate indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:09, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Articles almost always describe the subject as a "nobleman" not another term. There is no actual argument for upmerging this category. No one has pointed out any issues with the fact that historically knights were nobles and ladies were noblewomen, where lady is a term for a position of rank. There is no argument advanced to upmerge this. Just a blank statement that we do not want to subdivide noblemen and noblewomen. Noblemen and noblewomen have different roles, different functions and are very different at least for most of history. I think it makes perfect sense to subdivide them. Especially since many of the subcats that do exist (especially some for barons) are under 5 articles. It would be much better to merge some barons categories up to the by country noblemen categories than to leave them as is.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:39, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am tired of bring attacked by the editor Mason. She attacked me for removing someone who died in 1718 from the 18th-century people from the Russian Empire, even though the Russian Empire did not exist until 1718. She also reverted my removal of Reinoud van Brederode (1567–1633) from Ambassadors from the Netherlands catrgories. The Netherlands were formed in 1815 and so there were no Ambassadors from the Netherlands before that. I am tired of her insistence that she is absolutely right and especially of her insinuation that if I do not comply with her demands I will never by allied to participate in AfD ever again. That was beyond the pale of rudeness. I thought that the by century categories existed as a method to subdivide other things. It is telling that until my recent placement of the person who she complained about removal from the 18th-century people from the Russian Empire directly in the 18th-century people category there was no person in the 18th-century people category directly.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Really? @Johnpacklambert I'm sorry that you feel attacked. But this is an unfair characterization. Mason (talk) 22:19, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Russian military personnel of the Great Northern War is another place where this comes up. Our article explicitly says this was a conflict between the Tsardom of Russia and the Swedish Empire. The creation of the Russian Empire is by our article defined as a consequence of this war. For these reasons I moved the military personnel Category under the Tsardom of Russia tree and edited the information to correctly reflect that these people were in the military of the Tsardom of Russia. With cases where we are categorizing direct government agents, that is Ambassadors, military personnel, civil servants, royalty, judges, maybe nobility and a few others, the specific polity is very important. We clearly should not categorize people are serving the Russian Empire when thry actually act before the Russian Empire existed. It is very frustrating to do edits that correctly reflect history and follow the existing articles only to have them reverted by an editor who seems most intent on imposing modern boundaries on all out understanding of the past.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:54, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This categories parent, Russian people of the Great Northern War, only has this category as a sub-cat. No direct articles. This category is in other ways in the Great Northern War and Russian categories. John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:40, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can we at least agree that people who moved from France to New France do not belong in this category. I am thinking such a high percentage of People of New France (which probably should be renamed People from New France) were born in France that it makes no sense to create a French emigrants to New France, but we should not conflate them with Frebch immigrants to Canada, that at its broadest should be limited to Beitish and Commonwealth Canada, and makes no sense if it includes areas before British rakeover.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:43, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Precious

Seven years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:05, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to create a category Edlers in the Holy Roman Empire (I really think in is the right preposition here) but it seems like there is such a push to preserve Austria/German distinction pre-1805 that it will take a CfD to create such a category. There are 5 of the 15 Edlers of Germany who are pre-1805, and at least a few of the 86 Edlers of Austria who fall in that time period. I have no idea why the Austria category is so much bigger. I am not sure Austria is the right term since the title was abolished with the fall of Austria-Hungary, but I am not sure an Austrian Empire and Austria-Hungary split makes sense.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:37, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Johnpacklambert: to me this looks like a case of WP:OCAWARD. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:05, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  So you think all edler categories should be deleted. This may be true. I do not have a good grasp one way or the other on the system of titles in the Holy Roman Empire and its successor states.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think we should have this category. There was no United States until at least 1776, well into the 18th-century. I think the 17th-century Pennsylvania mayors category should be upmerged instead to Mayors in the Thirteen Colonies. I also wish I have named that category Mayors of places in the Thirteen Colonies, to match the sibblings we do have.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:04, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be better to use from and to rename the parent to People from the Thirteen Colonies as well. We have been trending to use of instead of from. At one point we remained all the categories of people from the specific Colonies to People from colonial New York, People from colonial Pennsylvania, etc. So it would seem logical to use the from form in the parent as well. The occuapat8onal categories, Surveyors from the Thirteen Colonies, Merchants from the Thirteen Colonies, Printers from the Thirteen Colonies, Artists from the Thirteen Colonies all pretty much use from (except Kayors in the Thirteen Colonies, which should be renamed to Mayors of places in the Thirteen Colonies, and that using in instrument of from is our standard proceedure).John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:43, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Marcocapelle.

I was a little suprised to see a request for speedy deletion/renaming for Category:Islam and slavery. This should perhaps not be a speedy-issue, since this category is a sub-category of a main category that must correspond to its eqvivalent sub categories.

You can not erase the "Category:Islam and slavery" without erazing the eqvivalent: "Category:Christianity and slavery" and "Category:Judaism and slavery". Wikipedia must be consistent: erase all of these categories, or none of them.

These categories are useful for articles about the religion's rules and attituedes toward the institution of slavery. For example, the article Concubinage in Islam is suitable to have in the category "Category:Islam and slavery".

I do not object creating a sub categories such as for example "Category:History of slavery in the Muslim world", but the "Category:Islam and slavery" have a separate purpose. You can create "Category:History of slavery in the Muslim world" without deleting or renaming "Category:Islam and slavery".

In short: If you erase "Category:Islam and slavery" and "Category:Islam and slavery" and "Category:Judaism and slavery" as well. They all have - or should have - the same use. I am not sure if I write this on the correct page, so please excuse me if I do not, but I thought I should point out an observation. My very best greetings--Aciram (talk) 16:24, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Aciram: feel free to leave an "oppose" at WP:CFDS. I'd like to stress though that the nomination does not concern any kind of erasure. Renaming does not impact the existence or the content of the category. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:39, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am a little uncertain exactly where to post my comment. I can add - since you also did - that a renaming would in a sense be an "erasure" since a new name would have a new meaning and would not longer correspond to its sister-categories.--Aciram (talk) 16:44, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should either rename the 17th-century categories to 17th-century people from the Thirteen Colonies. True there are not 13 colonies until 1732, but in our article we have accepted the term to refer to the grneral region for all its history. On further thought I think 16th-century American is so anachronistic we should scap all such categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:12, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The argument that this is not ambiguous because the other category would be Greek muses should not be considered worthwhile. Any category disambiguation that relies on people correctly noticing which category has an upper case letter and which has a lower cases letter is not disambiguating enough.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:17, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Drawing artists should not be merged to daughtsmen. That term is A-ambiguous, B-toiblesome because it ends in -men and c. Introduces an Emglish variation issue that could be solved by using a different term. If you look up the article Draughtsman you will find there are 6 different occupations that are covered there. The current draughtsman tree is at least to some extent merging the Drawing artist and the drafter terms and has some people who are both. That is only the first problem. The second is that the term ends in -men. We generally avoid using a term that ends in that way. In fact this may be the only Category where a term ends in -men and is not actually gender specific. Fisherman are called fishers, businessmen, which at one point was so unmbiquitous is businesspeople unless we have specific men, policemen, firemen, postman and so on we avoid using. The best term is actually drawers. The problem is that is the same word used for A-parts of a dresser, cabinet or desk, b-an item of clothing and c-people who take water out of a well. So even Drawers (people) would be potentially ambiguous. The best we could do is drawers (artists) which might be better than the current name. C. Even if we ignore that draughtsman is both ambiguous and potentially excluding some of the content, we have the issue that in the US and some other places that use English the preferred spelling is draftsman. Lastly having looked at the sources "draughtsman" or "draftsman" is also not always how these people are described. Many reliable sources just say the person was an artist and mention that thry had notable drawings without ever trying to use a word to say what they were doing. Either "drawing artist" or "Drawers (artists)" is about the best we can do. Either will be far clearer and less ambiguous than the target.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:56, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please add Category:British English-language television shows to this article. Thanks, 86.123.229.72 (talk) 06:38, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We as Wikipedia editors should follow accepted procedures. West Asia is clearly less Euro-centric. There is also the issue that "Near East" at one time was the far more common term, At one point the Middle East more often referred to South Asia and maybe Iran. The last think we want is a category by categiry defintion. If we are going to have East Asia, West Asia, South Asia, Central Asia, etc categories we need to define them. The definition has to be uniform to topic, but not to time. So we could define Central Asia as those areas in Asia east of the limit of Chinese control. Thus at certain times Uigurstan was in central Asia, but today it is in East Asia. We do not want to define these terms differentl for different subjects though. Georgraohy of West Asia, Cities of West Asia, etc. Should cover the same area however we define it.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:42, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A tag has been placed on Category:Television shows written by Anthony Horowitz indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. ✗plicit 11:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Marco. I just wanted to ask for some advice on this Cfd. Its a simple WP:NARROWCAT about a 19th-century baseball league with only two articles. Now I do have a plan for it AFTER it is merged per nom so those articles aren't erased from the MLB cats. But its after.

I'm also following the usual pattern as set in baseball categories and previous discussions in WP:Baseball (and even pointed out as much -- its a bit complicated, history wise so I won't get into it). However, the creator of the article is not assuming good faith and is being rathr vicious and derailing the Cfd by going on rants and painting my intentions in a bad light. Keep in mind, this is a simple WP:NARROWCAT merge. They are straight up demanding I withdraw the nomination.

Can you help out? It will be much appreciated. Thanks. Omnis Scientia (talk) 16:05, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Spanish anarcho-syndicalists has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Grnrchst (talk) 16:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at your another decat it came to my mind that some of the places do belong to these due to their strong nin-accidental assaciations, namely capitals of their subdivisions. For example, for category:Suwałki Governorate it is reasonable to contain Suwałki as its sapital, as well as Augustów, Kalvarija, etc., for being capitals of its counties. What do you think? --Altenmann >talk 18:14, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Altenmann: having been the capital of a past administrative division is not a defining characteristic of a current city. We do not even have categories for capitals of current administrative divisions. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:20, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please join in WT:CAT. --Altenmann >talk 17:08, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for bugging you again: you removed one item from Category:Novoalexandrovsky Uyezd, but there are three dozen more in it. Why you left them there? --Altenmann >talk 17:08, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Altenmann: that is very simple, I was taking Category:Wilno Voivodeship (1926–1939) as the starting point rather than Category:Novoalexandrovsky Uyezd. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It now looks like we have 11 in the parent category and 18 in the American one. I do not think we should ever have only 1 nationality sub-cat. I really see no reason to divide a 29 article catrgory by nationality. This takes ideas of Ametican exceptionalism to an unjustified extreme.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:35, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mizz Eva is in category "living people". So either she did not in fact die before Hong Kong became part of China or the article is very flawed.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:41, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article says she was born in 1981, so only about 15 when British rule ended, and that she released her first work in 2004. The only listed albums are from the 2010s.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You said I could put it up for Speedy, is there a way to withdraw it? What speedy criteria do I need to list it under? Btspurplegalaxy 💬 🖊️ 09:34, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Btspurplegalaxy: you just need to mention that you are withdrawing it. Speedy criterion is WP:C2D. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A tag has been placed on Category:Medieval history of Bahrain indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:44, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just would like to know if there's a way to automate this instead of doing it by hand. YourAverageWeeb (talk) 12:37, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @YourAverageWeeb: WP:HOTCAT makes it a lot easier. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:41, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  thanks YourAverageWeeb (talk) 12:41, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Marcocapelle,

Have you ever seen a worse example of overcategorization? I don't even know where to start removing categories. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:24, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Liz: it probably is a record! I have removed settings by time and place. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:42, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oo look, there is a new process of WP:Administrator elections as an alternative to WP:RFA. I would be very happy if you would help to test the process by putting yourself forward as a candidate. – Fayenatic London 20:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:13th-century Indian Jain writers has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Mason (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't remove categories headers because you want to make a category more specific. You're welcome to nominate the category for renaming, and I'd support such moves, but removing the template is counter productive. I think that you're conflating nationality and religion when you move a nationality category into a specific religion. I've reverted your changes. Mason (talk) 13:32, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand why instead of discussing the difference, here, you're nominating the tree for deletion,Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 October 8#Early abbots by century. That just doesn't seem like a constructive path forward. What gives? Mason (talk) 22:16, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've been trying to find common ground here, but you're making that difficult by not engaging with me at all. Like, I can't alter the template if you're unwilling to discuss the nuances of the issue. Mason (talk) 22:39, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This category is meant to seperare Mexican California from earlier Spanish Cifornia and later American California. Merging it to Alta California merges the Spanish and Mexican periods and removes it from the Mexican parents where it belongs.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:35, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Johnpacklambert: according to article Alta California it was not called Alta California under Spanish rule. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:51, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article says it was established in 1804. Spanish rule lasted until 1821.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:30, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Johnpacklambert: it was called Nueva California under Spanish rule. We miss a category for that. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:46, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • If that is the case, than we probably should rename all the In Alta California cats for 1820 and earlier to Nueva California. I have to admit I am not sure that level of division of the in New Spain category is justified for all those years though. Although if we translate Nueva Espana to New Spain, why not translate Nueva California to New California? I guess one way to check is what do reliable English-language sources call the place?John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:33, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A tag has been placed on Category:Kingdoms of the Vedic period indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. ✗plicit 03:26, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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A tag has been placed on Category:People by former municipality in Latvia indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Marcocapelle, just looking for some advice. Currently we have this category tree of 34 categories, mostly consisting of a single redirect to the same article: 2028 United States Senate elections. Is there any way to easily tag them all for deletion/merging? Thanks. AusLondonder (talk) 08:24, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @AusLondonder: sure, if you list them on CfD, I can tag the pages with AWB. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:30, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks, I'll hopefully get around to doing that very soon. AusLondonder (talk) 14:37, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A tag has been placed on Category:17th century in Somalia indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. ✗plicit 03:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A tag has been placed on Category:13th century in Somalia indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. ✗plicit 03:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A tag has been placed on Category:American Californios indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:34, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I noticed you were the creator of the category Children of general secretaries of communist parties and otherwise involved with similar categories. I've categorized many children of monarchs, presidents and prime ministers to make them more complete, even created some subcategories. The first category mentioned here stands out and I've an idea for a new one. I was thinking of categorizing children of US senators and governors. I've great interest in genealogies of powerful people, especially when their relatives are famous enough to warrant a Wikipedia article. However, I'm worried that genealogy and association stuff on Wikipedia has a bad reputation and will likely be contested. I'd like to hear your thoughts before even attempting to make a category. Killuminator (talk) 12:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Killuminator: this is probably not a good idea, as I don't think that being a child of a senator or governor is a defining characteristic. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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BGerdemann (WMF) (talk) 00:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC) [reply]

Hello, Marcocapelle,

I think we have an instance of overcategorization here but you have more experience than I do at pruning away inappropriate categories than I do. Can you spare a minute to review this article? Thank you, in advance. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:31, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Liz: I am afraid I can't help in this case. Presidents usually are in a crazy number of categories, especially (as in this case) in a crazy number of award categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again. Housekeeping after chronology changes still takes longer than I expect! [1]

I've left Category:1810s in Germany and its (dis)establishment subcats holding years within that decade for both the Confederation of the Rhine and the German Confederation. More commonly we name the decade category according to the name of the territory at the end of the decade, but in this case I think I found the estab cats using the generic name and went along with that. – Fayenatic London 15:36, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After that there was still more to clean up… I got bored of creating redirects for years, but you're welcome to do so for the middle of Category:19th-century establishments in Germany. – Fayenatic London 11:43, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed a clash with 'country' and 'nationality' in some literary categories that I traced to those parent categories: Category:Fiction by nationality and Category:Novels by genre and country. Down the line in results in inconsistency like Category:Spy novels by country vs Category:Speculative fiction works by nationality, where obviously we are talking about the same concept (country seems to be correct, rather than nationality - consider Category:Polish spy novels and Category:Polish speculative fiction novels). I am a bit too tired to figure out how to fix this mess, but you I hope you'd have more experience and ideas how to tackle this? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:44, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Piotrus: country and nationality are at odds with each other when a writer migrates to a different country and write their books there. You can argue both ways, but I would say that in such a case the country of production and publication of the work is more relevant than the author's original nationality. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:55, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree. How do we fix it? Note that if we currently navigate upwards from Polish spy novels and Polish speculative fiction, we end up at two different parent categories (one for nationality and one for country). This is not good. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Piotrus: they can simply be listed at CFD or even CFDS, right? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Right, but I am not sure how to list them properly - what do we need to rename? Fiction by nationality into Fiction by country? And how to list all affected subcategories in need of renaming? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:14, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • @Piotrus: I misunderstood the situation, thought that it was randomly sometimes by nationality, sometimes by country. In fact the whole tree has been set up consistently as by nationality (with apparently occasional exceptions): Category:Works by nationality, Category:Works by Polish people etc. While I do not really agree with it, I also think this is too big to fix. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:06, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      The problem is that this becomes a mess at the bottom - how come "Polish spy novels" is about nationality and "Polish speculative fiction novels" about the country? This does not seem correct. Those category trees seem to be mostly redundant and overlapping significantly. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      We could rename everything in the country tree to be 'from Foo country', although for many countries this will be pretty pointless and just doubling the number of identical categories... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Su Weidao is the only article in the 648 births category. The article makes it clear his birth in that specific year is uncertain. I would move him out of that category, because we are clearly being more precise than we can be accurate with a category, but I get attacked fir removing even clearly wrongly placed articles from categories when the article is the last one in the category. So I do not know what yo do. Clearly this article should at least be moved to the 640s birth category where we do not imply so much certainty.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:31, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Johnpacklambert: based on footnote 1 in the article it is quite likely that birth and death year are 648 and 705 respectively. There is a small chance that birth happened in 647 or 649, but I don't find that enough reason to move the article to the decade category. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:10, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think if there is a chance the subject was born in 647 or 649 we should placd the aubject in the decade birth category. Otherwise we are veing more precise than we are accurate. Especially since it does not help navigation to have 1 article categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 11:44, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I created a note on my talk page you may want to check.John Pack Lambert (talk) 11:46, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You mentioned that Winiie the Pooh and the Blustery Day is in 27 categories. The last I checked Winston Churchhill was in over 100 categories. At one point we had articles to list the awards given to certain monarchs, and some of those articles were in over 50 categories. 27 is nothing. I get the point, bit it is so much worse in some cases.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:47, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, modern biographies in general have become a disaster with respect to categorization. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:01, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Castilians Category says it is for people who were from the Kingdom of Castile. This is a different entity than the Crown of Castile. The Later was a union of the Kingdom of Castile and the Kingdom of Leon. Both polities existed an independent places for a time before they were merged.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:57, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So the Castilians are no more overlapping with People from the Crown of Castile than English people overlap with People from the United Kingdom. All the more so because the map you get shown when you link from Castilians shows Castile as a distinct place from Leon, which means it is not visually in its header invoking the Crown of Castile at all. What we probably should do is rename the post-Croen formation Castilians categories to be x-century people from the Crown of Castile. This name was chosen intentionally because the Crown of Castile was a more expansive realm. Which is also why we have a separate article on it.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:01, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The article Castillians defines these as current people living in the Gistoric region of either the Kingdom of Castile or the Colroen of Castile, and then proceeds to talk about disputed usage of the term. It seems odd for us to use a term in a Category name to mean something different than what our article defines it as. We have articles on both the Kingom of Castile and the Crown of Castile. The Later was formed by the permanent union of Leon and Castile in 1230. Although the governments do not fully merge until later. I would argue that to avoid disputes we should use People from the Kingdom of Castile from 1230-1479. We should use People from the Kingdom of Castile and People from the Kingdom of Leon pre-1230.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The de facto capital of the Crown of Aragon was in Barcelona, which was not even in the Kingdom of Aragon. It was in the County of Barcelona, which seems to have been technically a different place. Several of the people in the People from the Crown of Aragon Category were moved from not the Kingom of Aragon Category but from the Crown of Aragon Category itself. This indicates to me that at least some editors have bern intepreting the People from the Kingdom of Aragon to refer to people from that kingdom based on what the article on Kingdom of Aragon actually says. John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:06, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Crown of Aragon is formed in 1164 when the County of Barcelona and the Kingdom of Aragon are unified. It is telling we have Category:People from the County of Barcelona with sub-categories by century to the 12th. After the 12th-century we do not have categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:19, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The Kingdom of Aragon was formed in 1034. I would argue we should limit People from the Kingdom of Aragon to those who are categorically badmsed on pre-1164 dates. We should then use People from the Crown of Aragon for the post-1164 dates. The only people we should have in both categories would be People who are significant enough both before and after 1164 to categorize. While the Crown of Aragon was not a fully unified polity, the amount prleople interact across the Barcelona/Aragon line is so high it does not seem worth having 2 categories. How to treat people from the other polities (Kingdom of the Baleric Island, Kingdom of Valencia, Kingdom of Sicily, and the polities in modern Greece) that are added over time is trickier. I think for Kingdom of Sicily we should try to unify one category for everyone from there down through its end in 1816. As a geographically separated polity that does not get merged into Spain I think that makes sense. The polities in modern Greece I think need separate treatment even more.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:27, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Looking into this more, it seems the Kingdom of Valencia comes about as Aragon conquers territory from various polities of Al-Andalus. It seems to always exist as a component part of the Crown of Aragon. What I am not sure of is does ot make sense how we have Writers from the Community if Valencia including 16th-century writers. It looks to me like the Community of Vslrncia may be technically created in 1982. However the article trues to argue it in some sense dates back to the laws of Calencia in 1238. It appears to me there is some sense that at least after 1238 there was a distinct polity of Valencia, but it always had the same ruler as the rest of the Crown of Aragon. I think this is a sign that Soain uses terms that are not common elsewhere, but to adequately categorize people we need to use the right term. So I think from 1238 on (or whenever that part of the Kindom of Valencia was conquered by the Crown of Valencia) we should place people from the Kingdom of Valencia in the People from the Crown of Valencia.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:39, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• After having read up on the Kingdom of Majorca which was R he Balletic Islands, plus some territories on the mainland, including some that is now in France (and way off in France, not on the Spanish border), I think we should treat those from that polity from 1276 until 1344 as a distict group, but it looks like people from there pre-1276 (from the islands co quest in I think 1219) and people post-1344 would functionally belong just in People from the Crown of Aragon.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:46, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I have started Category:People from the Kingdom of Majorca it has several in the Majorcan monarchs category, and 4 articles. I think I found at least 2 maybe 3 other articles that could have been added, but because of an editing restriction I have I did not add them..I did not exhaust my search through the People from the Balleric Islands. I have doubts that a Category like Majorcan writers as we have it makes sense. I am thinking it should bd renamed Writers from Majorca, since in the main it is people from the island. We normally only use fooian Category gorm for people from recognized independent countries or for recognized ethnicic groups. The fact that Majorcan monarchs refers to rules of the Kingom of Majorca (including the queens consort subcat) while Majorcan writers refers to writers "from" the island shows we are using Majorcan for 2 covers different purposes. It is not clear with some other Majorcan categories is thry refer to people from the Island, people from the Kingdom of Majorca, people from the Kingdom of Majorca when it was a constituent part of the Crown of Aragon, people from the Muslim polity based on Majorca prior to James I's conquest, or anyone who has been called Majorcan whatever exactly was meant by this term. The most active institution in ghe Kingdom of Majorca, the main source of writings in favor of the cause of the king during the period 1276 to 1344 when it was seeking to create a fully unique identity, was what seems to have been its only University, the University of Montpelier. That was in a place that is today deep in France and at the time was non-contiguous with the other parts of the realm. I have also not done an exhaustive study of people from Montpelier or the university. Some of them maybe should be placed in People from the Kingdom of Majorca as well.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:31, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Some of the people in People from Majorca, or it's sub-cats are also in 15th-century people from the Kingdom of Aragon or maybe even 14th-century People from the Kingdom of Aragon. At least a few of these people seem to have primarily or exclusively lived on the island, and so technically in the Kingdom of Majorca in the Crown if Aragon, not it the Kingdom if Aragon. It appears as applied from the 12th-century on the by century sub-cats of People from the Kingdom of Aragon are really being used as People from the Crown of Aragon. It seems we should rename these to reflect correctly that thry cover People from the Crown of Aragon.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:35, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Despite the fact Smallcat was deprecated as a guideline about a year ago people still regularly invoke it in AfD discussions. It would be nice if people would regularly respond by saying small cat no longer applies. Especially when people invoke it to keep micro categories as part of an alleged overall scheme, which is the very misuse that caused it to end. The use of it where narrow cat is what should be invoked is not as unacceptable, but people really should be citing current guidelines.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:08, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]